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NomadMac

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
163
Location
Marin County
Anyone else think the Bolt now looks DOA after seeing the Tesla 3 reveal?
$35K with supercharging is pretty hard to beat. Chevy has always been half hearted in its support of EVs with virtually no charging stations.

Yes, I made a deposit on a 3 this morning. I'll probably go back to driving my Nissan truck for a year after my Spark lease runs out. For the record, my wife's not wild about the "pig nose" on the 3.

Elon announced deposits on 115,000 cars today. That's some serious coin.
 
Good for you! I'm glad they announced that it will actually have Supercharging privileges.
Of course I always thought that is a strange and unsustainable business model.
How many miles can you drive your Model 3, charging strictly for free at a SC, before you used more electrons than the value of the car? Anyone?

We'll see how DOA a Bolt is when it has been driving around for (?) 2-3 years before you get your Model 3.
In my town 50kW DCFC is free so local driving is similar to the Tesla model of "Free Fuel for Life" .
That's another thing, does the M3 charge at 100kW at a SC? (and only there. No other DCFC options for the M3)

So many questions remain. So much money, interest free, for any amount of time.

I would think it was tacky if Chevy started taking deposits on a car that has not even been seen, let alone a firm arrive date, or details in writing.
It's almost like a Steve Jobs cult of personality thing.
I would bet half the people laying down money have done very little research on all things EV.
 
He didn't say it would have supercharging privileges, just that the interface was built in.
I wouldn't use the supercharger very often but it means I can now get to Lake Tahoe from the SF Bay Area.

Maybe people are willing to put down a refundable $1,000 deposit because they actually see money being invested in facilities like a charging network and a battery factory. We believe in Tesla. I don't have much faith in Chevy. We can't even get them to fix the crappy traction control.

Yeah, I'm a fanboy of Steve Jobs and Apple. I've kind of made my living off of being a Mac consultant for 23 years.
Apple and Tesla have changed the world. I like being part of that.
 
NomadMac said:
>...I wouldn't use the supercharger very often but it means I can now get to Lake Tahoe from the SF Bay Area.

>>....Tesla have changed the world. ..

> What if one was just a few blocks away? Why buy electrons if your car manufacturer is giving them away?

>> How so? It's just a very expensive BEV. Very few people know any details about it. It's all "Word of Mouth" marketing.

It's a +5000 lb EV with +7000 small cylindrical 18650 laptop cells for a battery pack. That is because when Tesla started on the roadster there were no large Li-Ion cells to make a proper EV pack.
They stayed the course for some reason. Does the M3 use this method of building a battery pack? Who knows?
 
I wish them success. The more electrics out there the better. Now having said that, I'm not excited by it and can't see myself getting in line for one.

First, I don't care for the style. I'm that rare Mercan that actually likes hatchbacks. The front end is unfinished, what's that plain area where a grill would normally be?

Second, it's vaporware. Tesla always delivers late. It will come, but who knows when. I'm going to need a car in 2017.

Third, what will the real, final price be? Nothing Tesla has done has ever come in at the publicized price. If $35K before rebate is true they've really done something. I'd bet you're looking at a $45-50K car when they're done.

When it does show up I'm sure it will be a good car and I do hope it succeeds, it just isn't my cuppa. Properly promoted (please Chevy) there's room for both the 3 and the Bolt.
 
I've seen that pig nose before:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Caravelle#/media/File:Renault_Caravelle_001.JPG

I think Elon is going to have to stick to the $35K price.
That price is predicated on the Giga Factory reducing battery prices by a third.
 
What is the story about repairs? I am 300-500 miles (depending on going north or south) from the closest authorized service. I understand that Tesla flew in technicians to service some cars - although what might work at the $100,000 level is probably not going to work at the $35,000 level.

The closest Tesla supercharging stations are 35 miles and 70 miles from my house - not particularly attractive. Whereas there are now 4 CCS stations within 1.5-25 miles.
 
NomadMac said:
I've seen that pig nose before:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Caravelle#/media/File:Renault_Caravelle_001.JPG
Worked better on the Caravelle (Renault originally planned to name it the Corvette)
 
NomadMac said:
Anyone else think the Bolt now looks DOA after seeing the Tesla 3 reveal?


no


;)


seriously, I need a hatch or a wagon, a sedan won't work for me. And the Model 3 is a long way away from being a production car. Whereas the Bolt has run down the GM assembly line in what is likely to be final form.


But I say: bring them all on! We need more affordable EVs. We need more EVs, period.
 
nikwax said:
...But I say: bring them all on! We need more affordable EVs. We need more EVs, period.
Yeah ! That sums it up !

But still,,,,, (I posted this on the Volt forum and it's easier to copy/paste)

It just seems kind of 'Cult-ish'.
What percentage of these 'depositors' know much about EV's?
They seem to be enamored by a brand name, without knowing much about Nikola.

The finances are starting to sound shaky. I really don't follow that side of it.
I follow the technology side of it, and I'm living it with my 'Mini Tesla', The Spark EV. And with Free DCFC I even roll like a Tesla.
How many of these 'depositors' know of this car? Probably very few. How many can even name 3 other BEV's?

What exactly does the 3 do that the Bolt does not do? One has an ETA.

I can answer another thing. One has 'access' to an existing DCFC network. How it has this access nobody knows yet.
Will any of these 'depositors' actually head out on the open road to the 'family cabin' in the Rockies with the 3? Probably very few.
But we do know the OTHER DCFC networks (CCS/Chademo) are growing daily.

(I'm also into sport aviation. There is an analogy with Jim Bede taking 10,000 deposits on the BD-5 sport airplane.
Great plane, but the deposits went down in flames. Fortunately it was only $400 deposits in the early 70's.
This sort of thing could never happen today, correct?)
 
Another "Take a Breath" view on this phenomena that happened in the last few days:\
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-tesla-hype-20160401-snap-htmlstory.html
 
NORTON said:
Another "Take a Breath" view on this phenomena that happened in the last few days:\
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-tesla-hype-20160401-snap-htmlstory.html


interesting read.


one point: Tesla has deposits on more cars now than its total production run for all of its cars. They'll need to pull off a massive expansion of the Fremont plant, and the Gigafactory is going to have to deliver on both volume and price for battery packs.

I'm hoping they can do it all.


BTW, China and India aren't messing around, they are heavily investing in EVs. 2020 should be another milestone in EV history.
 
There's no timeframe when Tesla must actually deliver the cars. As such, even if they make 30K cars per year, 250K reservations they have (as of yesterday) could take 8.3 years. I suspect there will be more reservations while some drop out. They will also make more than 30K/yr (500K/yr is their goal).

Then assuming mid 2019 as the first model comes to market (they're always late) and ramp up time, that will be about 2022 when non-reserved people will get their cars. That's ok with me; I hope all the early adopters will shake out the bugs.

As for Bolt, that might be ok to lease as interim while waiting for Model 3. But Bolt lags terribly compared to Model 3, and going head-to-head is going be bad: Bolt is slower, lacks decent fast charge network (Chevy said Bolt is city car), and more expensive. If Chevy can bring Bolt 2.0 by the time Model 3 comes out (2019/2020), they can compete. But if not, Bolt is a bridge car to Model 3.

As for supercharger, you need one within 100 miles from home since the range will be 200 miles. Most people will have access to them and useful. However, supercharger crowing could be a HUGE problem if they give out free charging or lifetime charging with one time fee or unlimited charging for monthly fee. Basically, Free charging SUCKS!

http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2015/10/free-charging-sucks.html

Also, I'll be curious how quickly Model 3 will charge. I suspect it won't be much faster than SparkEV when it comes to percent battery. It's pretty hard to beat 2.5C charging speed of SparkEV.
 
I probably will go for the Bolt over the Tesla in mid-2018 when my lease on the Spark EV runs out, primarily because the Bolt will have been out a year already and we will have some real world info about it by then. I wouldn't buy from the first production run of a Chevy car, though.

Also? I hate those gullwing doors on the Tesla. A lot.
 
SparkevBlogspot said:
.... Basically, Free charging SUCKS!...
My experience it exactly the opposite, Free Charging is Fantastic !!
What's not to love about it?



I have 13k miles on my car in +9 months and have used about $373 worth of free charging according to chargepoint.
This is if I used $0.125 for my home $/kWh costs. I did plug my car in at home during very cold nights for battery TMS reasons. Last time I looked at my L2 EVSE kWh meter I used maybe $25 at home over the winter.
I had to charge to get TMS. Normally my car sits overnight NOT plugged in, after my ~25 mile commute home, .

The local electric power company built a big EVSE network and it's supposed to be free for the first 2 years. I have heard this may be extended:http://www.kcpl.com/about-kcpl/environmental-focus/clean-charge-network
It was a "Build it. And they will come!" sort of thing, I suppose... Well I was already here, and I love it! Some call this mooching, etc.
I say, "What it KCP&L threw this 'EV Party' and nobody came? Wouldn't their feelings get hurt?"

I took a friend to the airport yesterday. It's an 82 mile RT from my house but it was a much longer day of driving EV because of meeting her somewhere, going out for a meal and then running errands all over the city on the way home.
That day I stopped at 2 different DCFC stations for ~10 minutes each stop.
I couldn't do that trip in my EV without this network.

Maybe free charging is a nuisance for a few. What's the alternative? Pay a For Profit figure for kWh's? What is the preferred cost for a kWh out of a DCFC station? That is coming soon.
 
ReddyKilowatt said:
The closest Tesla supercharging stations are 35 miles and 70 miles from my house - not particularly attractive. Whereas there are now 4 CCS stations within 1.5-25 miles.

Teslas can use CHAdeMO with an adapter.
We have quite a few Blink stations with CHAdeMO in the Bay Area.

I was looking at the Tesla supercharger network and they have two stations in Truckee, the place I would most likely be going to on an extended trip.
 
NORTON said:
My experience it exactly the opposite, Free Charging is Fantastic!! What's not to love about it?
You must love waiting in line. Read my blog post to see why I hate it.

If you live in relatively EV sparse area, you may not notice it as much for now. But more EV are coming, Bolt and new Leaf and new BMW and Hyundai Ioniq and so on and so forth, all of them with bigger batteries and longer charge times. If they get free charging, each one could take an hour or more, making the problem far worse. If EV are to be mainstream, free charging will simply not work.

Just yesterday, I waited 1 hour for 2 Leafs getting free 30 minutes charge when I only needed 10 minutes. I talked to them while waiting, that's how I know they get for free; they also live nearby and could've easily charged at home. Why should they charge at home and pay for electricity when public charging is free? They were also charging at 5kW power using 50kW charger (was over 90%). They could care less how long it took. I don't blame them; it's the policy of free charging that's the problem.

NORTON said:
used about $373 worth of free charging according to chargepoint. This is if I used $0.125 for my home $/kWh costs.
Your home solar charging is not shared with other people who get it free. Let's see what happens when you offer up your home charging for free to the public.
 
SparkevBlogspot said:
..
NORTON said:
used about $373 worth of free charging according to chargepoint. This is if I used $0.125 for my home $/kWh costs.
Your home solar charging is not shared with other people who get it free. Let's see what happens when you offer up your home charging for free to the public.
I don't have solar at home, but it is a dream. Who would want to stand around in a suburban driveway sucking it up at a lowly 3.3kW rate? That's how I have my L2 adjusted.
I believe I'm using the KCP&L network as intended. Why else did it get built?

I can't imagine what you are seeing? Is there a 'Rush Hour' at the DCFC units? There can't be a constant waiting line, right? Could you adjust your schedule?
Is this just part of your daily commute? Wow... Maybe you 'adopted' EV too early. You sound like you need a Bolt. A daily wait like that is too much for even the most enthusiastic EV owner.

Plus, I think you said these goofy people who are charging very slowly at the end of their 'Free 30 mins' will not be getting free much longer, right?
You never know, maybe they are apartment dwellers and can't charge 'at home'. And they plan on a full range trip after leaving the DCFC unit.... (both just a 'benefit of the doubt'...) Maybe some of them adopted too early....

I can't get through your long blog on this subject right now.
Briefly, what do you pay at a DCFC and at home?
I've been trying to find out what I will pay after the network's 'First 2 Years Free' plan is up.
My plan would then be to plug in at the building where I work using the L1 EVSE like I used to do, (before a row of the Free network L2's showed up across the street).
I still plug in at work on very cold days using L1 after I top up at the L2 across the street in the AM.
And only use the DCFC units for airport runs or long days out and about in the city.
 
NORTON said:
I believe I'm using the KCP&L network as intended. Why else did it get built?
I don't understand. Are you saying you're getting free charging L2 at home? If it's public, then lack of crowding means your areas lacks EV; wait till there's more, and you'll find out how awful "free" can be.

NORTON said:
I can't imagine what you are seeing? Is there a 'Rush Hour' at the DCFC units? There can't be a constant waiting line, right? Could you adjust your schedule?
Daily commute is not an issue since I don't need it, and most people won't. But not being able to use it when you need it is the problem no matter if that's once a week (weekends are busiest) or once a month. And if you're to schedule around the busy times, you'd be taking days off during week days and working weekends and planning to get home after shopping (or whatever to need DCFC) before 1 PM or after 10 PM to avoid "afternoon rush hours". That's hardly reasonable.

NORTON said:
Plus, I think you said these goofy people who are charging very slowly at the end of their 'Free 30 mins' will not be getting free much longer, right?
There's no guarantee that they will stop after 2 years. If they try to follow Tesla model, "free charging" could go on much longer. One reason I bitch about it so much is that I hope Chevy doesn't follow Nissan and BMW with Bolt.

NORTON said:
You never know, maybe they are apartment dwellers and can't charge 'at home'. And they plan on a full range trip after leaving the DCFC unit.... (both just a 'benefit of the doubt'...) Maybe some of them adopted too early....
I doubt the problem I'm seeing is from apt dwellers as these charging areas are single home residences. Most people I speak with who get free charging live nearby.

NORTON said:
Briefly, what do you pay at a DCFC and at home?
At home, $0.17/kWh, DCFC $15/mo + $0.10/min. For DCFC without membership fee, it's about $0.16/kWh, but much more if I let it sit with taper. Including base fee makes the total variable, but overall about $0.33/kWh (about half to membership fee).

NORTON said:
I've been trying to find out what I will pay after the network's 'First 2 Years Free' plan is up.
I don't know if the pricing is the same where you live or if eVgo is the best deal. But I suspect you'll pay more for public charging than home, which I think is the correct approach. There are far more homes than public chargers, and public chargers should be used as needed for travel, not as home charging substitute.

NORTON said:
My plan would then be to plug in at the building
There was a guy in forum from San Diego (Stevon, I think) who was trying to get free charging through various contortions to pay off his SparkEV in 5 years or something. That didn't turn out well with his charger port getting yanked/broken and various other problems. He ended up trading in SparkEV for a hybrid, then talked about how awful it was to charge; well yeah, free charging SUCKS. I hope you take reasonable care with freebies and pay to charge rather than take undue risks.
 
Posts getting too big so,
>I have an L2 at home from my Volt days. I used it only during the coldest weather this winter, ~$25 worth of my electrons went into my Spark EV since I bought it.
The rest is from once a day charging at a free L2 across the street from my work. My company also has 3 outdoor outlets for us EV geeks. I only use that on the coldest of days for TMS after topping up at the L2's. And I use the 14 DCFC stations as needed around the metro area.

>Tough times for you at the busy DCFC stations in your area, :( , sorry. I guess you are living the future now! Even if the 'Free' guys run their course, more and more EV's are coming on line. Better get your deposit in on a Bolt now. Did you know Chevy is Crowd Funding the Bolt introduction? They took a page from the Tesla play book! jk

>Thanks for sharing what the cost of future public charging may look like.

> This is not my first EV Rodeo, there pardner. The Spark EV suits me just fine. Once a day free charging is EXCELLENT. I love life with an EV right now. I really don't need a Bolt.
But it sounds like you might.
You're not going to talk me into the concept of NO FREE Charging.
 
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