Thinking about the spark for a crazy commute- bad idea?

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HarleyQuinn321

New member
Joined
Jun 5, 2014
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2
Hi Guys,

I work in Santa Monica but my husband just got a job in San Diego. Because I have enrolled in my employer's tuition reimbursement program, I have a 4 year obligation to my job and can't get a job down there.

We are splitting the commute difference and moving to Irvine--a 50 mile one way-trip for me. To make the commute more tolerable I want to get a car that is eligible for the white single occupant carpool sticker. My work has a charging station in the parking lot and I will be living right by a DC Fast Charging Station in Irvine.

Since my commute won't qualify me for a lease...I plan on buying but have a few reservations. I understand the battery will deteriorate over time--but how quickly? I plan on getting a charging station installed in Irvine, but will fast charging frequently significantly deteriorate the battery? Are there better vehicle options for my commute? After 4 years I will (hopefully) be living/working in San Diego and should have a significantly shorter commute.


Thanks for reading and any insight would be very much appreciated!
 
Assuming you are able to charge both at home and at work, this is totally reasonable. I say go for it!

Do your homework first, 100 miles round trip is more than I would be willing to commit to without charging at least a little. You would not necessarily need a level 2 EVSE, an ordinary 110 volt outlet would be sufficient if it could be plugged in for a few hours while you are working. You should have a backup plan in case the chargers at your work are all full.

If you would rather lease, but have concerns about the mileage, the Honda Fit EV is offered for $0 down and $250/month with unlimited miles. Some of the online car searches can help you find a dealer who actually has one. I love my Spark EV, but I wanted to purchase not lease.

I don't think the rate of charge the DC Fast Charging stations apply is overly harmful to the battery. A faster charge will cause it to heat up more which is harmful, but the Spark is able to actively cool its battery to avoid most if not all of the deterioration due to heat. Your warranty will cover you for 8 years/100,000 miles. The DC Fast Chargers are going to be the most expensive, and likely the most congested. Plugging in at work and at home would be the optimal solution.

-Chocula
 
I've read that the original Nissan Leaf's go down to about 80% of original capacity after about 100K of miles driven. Now that more recent EV models have active cooling installed, and improved battery chemistry, many expect there to be less deterioration over time. Also I second that the battery will not degrade faster due to quick charging, this has been shown with the Leaf, and will certainly hold true with the Spark: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1081662_despite-az-woes-most-nissan-leaf-batteries-fine-survey-shows

Having experience driving in the LA basin, if you drive conservatively (average speed of 55MPH), you can pull off 100 miles on a single charge. However, you'd be cutting it close, so as you say, plug in at work and you'll be fine. Also since your close to the Irvine quick chargers, you have a solid backup in case chargers are offline at work.
 
xylhim said:
I've read that the original Nissan Leaf's go down to about 80% of original capacity after about 100K of miles driven.
Nissan made all sorts of claims early on and then we Leafers (I'm leasing a Leaf) were surprised when Phoenicians were losing capacity like crazy (almost 30% loss in under 2 years @ 29K miles) due to the heat there, which were FAR worse than they claimed/we were led to believe. :( TonyWilliams ran a range test of capacity bar losers (worst was a 4 capacity bar loser). Results at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=228326.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=10257 has some very surprising statements that were not disclosed when Nissan made its initial claims.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=220120 is sort of a summary.

The Leaf has NO battery cooling system at all, unlike many other EVs and PHEVs (e.g. Volt, Spark EV, Rav4 EV, both Teslas, Focus Electric, etc.)

OTOH, http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=8838&p=340822#p340822 who's in an ideal climate for the lack of battery thermal management Leaf only lost 2 capacity bars before he crossed 100K miles. Someone even started http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=16236 and I posted my brief thoughts on this at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=359497#p359497.

Seems Elon Musk was right and Nissan's claims were wrong. :( Examples: http://gigaom.com/2010/08/05/tesla-ceo-nissans-leaf-battery-is-primitive/ vs. http://green.autoblog.com/2010/01/25/is-the-nissan-leaf-battery-pack-under-engineered/.

As an FYI, some folks posted about their Leaf battery replacement from having lost 4+ capacity bars at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=14102. Nissan added http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13192 after the Phoenix mess, likely due to a class-action lawsuit.
 
50 miles one way with charging at work? Absolutely doable. With respect to the DC Fast Charging Station, make sure it has a CCS "SAE combo plug" and not just a straight CHAdeMO (which the Spark EV can't use).
 
You won't need the charging station in Irvine. Just get any L2 (240 volt) charger (actually EVSE; charger is in the car), and you will have a full charge at home... Oh, are you in an apartment or condo? Check whether one can be installed. Charging at 120 volts, 12 amps (using any garage outlet), is still pretty slow, about 5 miles per hour of charge, I think. If your work has a charging station, it is probably L2, so 4-5 hours on it will get you filled up for the trip home.

The Spark EV is definitely an inexpensive commuter car. I really enjoy driving mine!
 
If you can't recharge at work you will be cutting it razor thin and we all know what happens when one plays with a razor.

Check out if there will be competition for the station at work.

Don't depend upon the public charger at Irvine, public chargers have a nasty habit of going out and not being fixed any too soon. Also check out the price of a charge. http://www.plugshare.com tells me the quick chargers (CHAdeMO and SAE Combo) at Quail Hill are $5 per session, use it very often and you will wipe out any savings very quickly. For those two reasons be sure to get an EVSE at home.

The Spark's a great car and I'm not trying to fan the flames of range anxiety but at 100 miles per day you are pushing things enough to have a plan B when something goes awry.
 
With L2 charging at both ends you could definitely make a Spark work, but I think there's a better option. Since you asked, although it's significantly more expensive I'd seriously think about a RAV4 for your commute. AFAIK they're still offering them with unlimited mileage leases AND you can actually get one, unlike the Fit EV. When new under ideal conditions Tony Williams got 142 miles @ 65 mph out of his. It doesn't come with any QC capability, and although Tony has people working on developing a CHAdeMO installation on it, I wouldn't count on that. With that range you wouldn't need quick charging for your commute in any case, and could charge at either end on L2. You will need a fairly powerful (at least 30 amp continuous, preferably 40) L2 EVSE at home, as big batteries (41.8 kWh usable) take longer to charge.

Do lease, though, as when the last of the 2,600 are gone at the end of this year Toyota has no plans to build any more, putting their money on fuel cells. Three years from now you should have more choices, and can either turn the car in or buy out the lease if you're happy. If interested, check out http://www.myRAV4EV.com and in particular these topics

"Buying vs. Leasing a RAV4 EV?"

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1144

and

"Dianne's SoCal deals thru Summer 2014 - updates often!"

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1053&start=10

Dianne Whitmire has sold more RAV4EVs than anyone, she doesn't play games, and she has an excellent rep among forum members.
 
Dianne's still with Carson? Wow! Before California started charging sales tax to out of state buyers I believe she was the number one Prius salesperson in the country. She was always known for being a straight shooter.
 
HarleyQuinn321 said:
Since my commute won't qualify me for a lease...I plan on buying but have a few reservations

Both the Honda Fit EV and Toyota Rav4 EV have unlimited mileage leases. Both companies want to desperately NOT be in the electric car business, and just make the minimum number to satisfy CARB, like GM does with the Spark EV and Fiat/Chrysler with the 500e.

You're lucky to be in California where you can have so many choices, and we are all lucky to have California Air Resources Board (CARB) or none of these cars would exist at all.

The bad news is that a Honda Fit EV is extremely hard to find and lease. By the way, the lease also includes full coverage insurance !!! These cars will be turned in and crushed at the end of the lease.

The Toyota Rav4 EV is easily available from Carson Toyota (tell Dianne Whitmire that Tony sent you), about $500 per month for unlimited miles, ZERO down and you will eventually get a check for either $2500 or $2000 from the state of California, Dianne is the only dealer who will give you the white HOV lane stickers at purchase and file you $2500 claim with the state.

The Rav4 EV is the only car that can easily do the round trip. we have one that frequently goes from San Diego to Riverside (about 180 miles total) with just a few hour charge in Riverside. I already have almost 40,000 miles on one Rav4 EV.

The drive train is built by Tesla in Fremont, California, and Toyota loses about $20k-$30k per car sold. It easily loses more money than ANY other compliance car out their, and is one fantastic deal for long distance commuters.

Here are the actual ranges of a the following cars that I have personally driven over a course at 62mph / 100kmh ground speed, no significant wind, no heater or air conditioning, dry hard surface roadway, and ending at the same elevation. All cars are with new condition batteries:

Toyota Rav4 EV - 145 miles
Spark EV - 98 miles
Nissan LEAF - 84 miles
Honda Fit EV - guesstimate of 80-ish miles
Fiat 500e - guesstimate of 80-ish miles

Please note that this has nothing to do with the EPA rated range. It is merely representative of what you can do with each of those cars in a no traffic commute in Southern California.

There is a forum at http://www.MyRav4EV.com/forum and and very popular Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/groups/rav4ev/

We have almost weekly Saturday (today) gatherings in SoCal where you can come by and "talk EV" with some very enthusiastic owners of every kind of EV.

The "Next San Diego EVent": Today, Sat, June 7, 2014, Poway

EV Meet Ups in Orange County, San Diego County and Los Angeles County:

All meet-ups on Saturday:


June 7 - Poway (San Diego County), 8:30am to 11am, Hamburger Factory, 14122 Midland Rd, Poway, CA 92064
Phone: 858-486-4575

June 14 - Cerritos (Orange County), 8:30am to 11am, Hometown Buffet, 11471 South St, Cerritos, 562-402-8307

June 21 - Northridge (Los Angeles County) 12pm - 5pm - Bob’s Big Boy in Northridge, 8876 Corbin Ave., Northridge, CA 91324). SE Corner of Northridge Way and Corbin Ave.

June 28 - Santa Ana (Orange County), 8:30am to 11am, Hometown Buffet, 1008 E 17th St, Santa Ana, 714-541-3020

August 9 - Irvine (Orange County), 9am - 12 noon, "World's Largest Electric Vehicle Gathering", now tentatively planned for:

Courtyard by Marriott
Irvine Spectrum
7955 Irvine Center Drive
Irvine, CA
 
Chocula said:
A faster charge will cause it to heat up more which is harmful, but the Spark is able to actively cool its battery to avoid most if not all of the deterioration due to heat. Your warranty will cover you for 8 years/100,000 miles.

All pure EV's are required to have that warranty in California (it's 150,000 miles for hybrids), but the warranty usually does not cover degradation.
 
emv said:
Dianne's still with Carson? Wow! Before California started charging sales tax to out of state buyers I believe she was the number one Prius salesperson in the country. She was always known for being a straight shooter.

She also sells more Rav4 EV's than anybody else on the planet by a very large margin.
 
gra said:
Do lease, though, as when the last of the 2,600 are gone at the end of this year Toyota has no plans to build any more, putting their money on fuel cells. Three years from now you should have more choices, and can either turn the car in or buy out the lease if you're happy. If interested, check out http://www.myRAV4EV.com and in particular these topics

"Buying vs. Leasing a RAV4 EV?"

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1144

and

"Dianne's SoCal deals thru Summer 2014 - updates often!"

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1053&start=10

I also recommend this thread:

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=210

You mentioned that you'll need to do this for 4 years, and the manufacturers are only required to offer 36 months for CARB compliance, so that will come up a bit short for your needs.

I would attempt to get a four year unlimited mileage lease on a Rav4 EV, since you will not be able to replace it in 36 months. So far, only Nissan and Tesla have announced or produce loner range EV's like the Rav4 EV.

Also, even if you can only get a 36 month lease with unlimited miles, it is likely that you can extend the lease at the end, since Toyota is likely to crush these on turn-in. 36 months meets the requirement, anything over that is "free money" to Toyota until the date with the crusher finally arrives.
 
As previously stated. A L2 charger at each end and the vehicle is still capable of tolerating traffic jam waits even after the batteries age.
Never heard tell of "a car that is eligible for the white single occupant carpool sticker. " ??? I'm a visible minority myself.
 
buickanddeere said:
Never heard tell of "a car that is eligible for the white single occupant carpool sticker. " ??? I'm a visible minority myself.
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/vr/decal.htm
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm

Normally, the carpool/HOV lanes in CA require that vehicles (except for motorcycles) have at least 2 occupants, sometimes 3.
 
TonyWilliams said:
HarleyQuinn321 said:
Since my commute won't qualify me for a lease...I plan on buying but have a few reservations
<snip>
The bad news is that a Honda Fit EV is extremely hard to find and lease. By the way, the lease also includes full coverage insurance !!! <snip>
Tony, unless they've changed it IIRR the Fit EV lease only includes collision insurance, not full coverage. You pay for everything other than collision. Still a deal, but unless you've been on waiting lists at multiple dealers for a year or so, your odds of getting a Fit EV are essentially zilch.
 
OBTW, there's another option for the OP since they'll be in Irvine, and at about the same price as the RAV4. If you want to be on the EV cutting edge, then you could lease a Hyundai Tucson FCEV for $3k down, $500/month for 36 months. Free fuel up to 12k miles a year and Valet maintenance, but I don't know what they charge you for any overage. You might need to keep another car for any extra miles but range anxiety just wouldn't be an issue and you don't need to worry about installing an EVSE or doing any wiring upgrades, plus you'll have convenient places to fuel up in Orange county- see the station map here:

http://cafcp.org/stationmap

New Release here:

http://www.hyundainews.com/us/en-us/Media/PressRelease.aspx?mediaid=40852&title=hyundais-first-mass-produced-tucson-fuel-cell-cuvs-arrive-in-southern-california
 
TonyWilliams said:
All pure EV's are required to have that warranty in California (it's 150,000 miles for hybrids), but the warranty usually does not cover degradation.
Per Chevrolet's website at http://www.chevrolet.com/owners/warranty.html
Propulsion Battery Warranty Policy
Like all batteries, the amount of energy that the high-voltage “propulsion” battery can store will decrease with time and miles driven. Depending on use, the battery may degrade as little as 10 percent to as much as 30 percent of capacity over the warranty period. A dealer service technician will determine if the battery energy capacity (kWh storage) is within the proper limit, given the age and mileage of the vehicle. Your Volt battery warranty replacement may not return your vehicle to “as-new” condition, but it will make your Volt fully operational appropriate to its age and mileage.

The consideration of will 82 * 0.7 = 57.4 miles or range meet my needs in 8 years was taken into account prior to my decision to purchase. I have been pleasantly surprised to see my estimated range exceeding 100 miles for a full charge, which I believe to be accurate after seeing your test. This is likely due not only my driving habits, but also living in a desirable climate that never gets very hot or cold. At this point, I am optimistic that I will still be getting 70 - 80 miles of range in 8 years.

-Chocula
 
Using the Chevy Spark EV I believe there will always be range anxiety. With a 100 mile round trip commute, and it sounds like no reliable charging at the work location, I believe that it would be tough to recommend the spark. With the criteria that has been outlined 100 mile commute charging at one end and over 12,000 miles per year and carpool lane access, I think the Chevy volt might be the better choice. Retail price on the Chevy volt is 35K. currently I see $4000 off all in stock Northridge Chevy, after state and federal incentives of $9000 that would make it $22,000 for a Chevy volt. With a purchase, rather than lease there would not be a worry about miles accrued. After 3 to 4 years as stated in the original post you would have reasonable resale value to recoup your cost. As much as most of us here like a pure EV the Chevy volt might be the best bet in this circumstance. With heavy traffic the Chevy volt does very well and may get 40+ miles of range before kicking in the gas engine. If there was charging at work she could possibly get 80 miles or more of the 100 mile commute. And with the gas engine there would be no range anxiety. And perhaps most important the Chevy volt qualifies for single rider carpool access.
 
supcrds said:
Using the Chevy Spark EV I believe there will always be range anxiety. With a 100 mile round trip commute, and it sounds like no reliable charging at the work location, I believe that it would be tough to recommend the spark. With the criteria that has been outlined 100 mile commute charging at one end and over 12,000 miles per year and carpool lane access, I think the Chevy volt might be the better choice. Retail price on the Chevy volt is 35K. currently I see $4000 off all in stock Northridge Chevy, after state and federal incentives of $9000 that would make it $22,000 for a Chevy volt. With a purchase, rather than lease there would not be a worry about miles accrued. After 3 to 4 years as stated in the original post you would have reasonable resale value to recoup your cost. As much as most of us here like a pure EV the Chevy volt might be the best bet in this circumstance. With heavy traffic the Chevy volt does very well and may get 40+ miles of range before kicking in the gas engine. If there was charging at work she could possibly get 80 miles or more of the 100 mile commute. And with the gas engine there would be no range anxiety. And perhaps most important the Chevy volt qualifies for single rider carpool access.
The Volt would have been an option but isn't (currently) any more, as the green single occupant HOV lane stickers ran out last month, and no PHEV qualifies for the white stickers which are still available in unlimited numbers. The OP said the HOV lane stickers are a consideration for her (with that commute, I'd consider them essential), so unless California increases the number of green stickers above 40,000, PHEVs like the Volt are out. At the moment an increase in green stickers appears unlikely, as congestion in the HOV lanes is causing a bit of a dispute between the state and federal governments.

Summarizing the options:

Spark EV:

Will work for this commute for at least three and probably four years, but only if you have guaranteed charging at both ends, preferably L2 rather than L1. You'd need to buy it. I'd opt for the CCS QC option for $750, just in case the battery deteriorates more rapidly than is likely; there will be CCS QCs in SoCal, at least 110 in the LA metro area and another 20 in San Diego, over the next three years or so. If you go with a Spark, I strongly recommend getting a 2014 instead of a 2015, even if you'd really like to have a Spark in one of the new colors. Changes to the 2015's battery and transmission ratio will almost certainly reduce its highway cruising range, as well as changing to a less heat-tolerant and lower cycle-life battery chemistry that make the long-term durability more suspect.


Ford Focus Electric:

Would probably work, is a more upscale ride than the Spark and has good deals at the moment, but will be considerably more expensive than the Spark. Like the Spark it has a liquid-cooled TMS, which I consider important if not essential for SoCal, and a 6.6 kW On-Board Charger (OBC), about twice as fast as the Spark's. NO QC option, and you'd want to buy. Range is a bit questionable, and needs L2 charging at both ends.


Honda Fit EV:

Should work for the commute, although only air-cooled battery so somewhat questionable. The unlimited mileage lease probably makes this the lowest cost option. 6.6 kW OBC, no QC option, needs L2 charging at both ends. Best utility of the small BEVs. Unfortunately, virtually impossible to get and production will end this year, with no follow-on model.


Fiat 500e:

Fun car but smallest of the BEVs with the range to do this commute, probably best freeway range along with the Spark of the sub-100 mile BEVs. I forget what kind of cooling the TMS has. 6.6 kW OBC, no QC option, price probably falls in between Spark and Focus, will have to buy, "Fix it Again, Tony" reputation of older Fiats to live down. Dealers were initially refusing to match the lease terms Fiat was advertising, but they may have come around. CEO asks people not to buy the car as he loses $14k on each one, so company support may be limited.


BMW i3 BEV:

Probably best driver, but crazy expensive for the range. The BEVx PHEV version would have worked with the green stickers, but see the Volt comments above.


Toyota RAV4 EV:

Longest ranged sub $50k BEV, Tesla EV guts, 9.6 kW OBC but no QC option, liquid-cooled, only need overnight or all-day L2 charge at one end, unlimited mileage lease. Reliability of the Tesla components has been a problem, and car will go out of production at the end of the year, with no follow-on BEV. Price, license and insurance costs probably considerably higher than other options, but unlimited mileage a plus.


Hyundai Tucson FCEV:

Brand new in the U.S., lease only for same price as the RAV4 EV, unlimited free fuel but only 12k/year lease, 265 mile range, hydrogen fueling stations in Orange county and LA so no problems there, largest of all. Since the OP will be putting on something like 24k miles/yr. just for her commute, mileage overage charges will be critical here. Either a higher mileage lease or keeping another car to use on alternate days will probably be necessary. As wit the RAV 4, license and insurance will probably be considerably higher than the others. Only included for consideration if the OP wants to be at the forefront of EV technology. If Hyundai starts offering unlimited mileage leases, though, this would be a very strong contender with the RAV4 EV given her commute.
 
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