Buying? Like actually purchasing - Am I alone?

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Pegasus

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Messages
126
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Am I the only one wanting to purchase the car instead of leasing it? I understand the tech evolution value of leasing but I plan to put so many miles on this thing that it'll cost me too much in overages! Plus I wouldn't get the tax credit and will have to play the pricing/shady deal game with the dealer if I lease. (The game is simpler on a purchase.)

I figure it this way: we average about 50 miles per day between work, errands and evening & weekend local trips. Taking 2 weeks off for longer trips, that's still over 17K miles per year. No way I'm going to get a dealer to agree to that at a good price.
 
Pegasus said:
Am I the only one wanting to purchase the car instead of leasing it? I understand the tech evolution value of leasing but I plan to put so many miles on this thing that it'll cost me too much in overages! Plus I wouldn't get the tax credit and will have to play the pricing/shady deal game with the dealer if I lease. (The game is simpler on a purchase.)

I figure it this way: we average about 50 miles per day between work, errands and evening & weekend local trips. Taking 2 weeks off for longer trips, that's still over 17K miles per year. No way I'm going to get a dealer to agree to that at a good price.
Click to expand...

Buying is really never a bad thing, especially in your case with that many miles you would not want to pay the penalty; at .25 a mile it would cost you about a $500 penalty if you got a 15k lease. Just make sure you CAN use all the tax credit this year you would not want to waste it as you can not carry it over to next year.
 
You are not alone. I thought if the Feds and State wand willing to pay 1/3 the cost of my car, I couldn't pass it up. We love our Spark EV and already have 1800 miles on it in 2 months. The $500 off the Bosch charger was also a great incentive.
 
Electricbowtie said:
You are not alone. I thought if the Feds and State wand willing to pay 1/3 the cost of my car, I couldn't pass it up. We love our Spark EV and already have 1800 miles on it in 2 months. The $500 off the Bosch charger was also a great incentive.
Click to expand...

I concur. I initially thought about leasing, but when I considered purchasing my 2LT at a $10,000 discount from its $27,820 MSRP price tag after the federal tax credit and the CA rebate, I decided that buying the car for $17,820 plus T&L was the way to go. When I have leased in the past the mileage I was putting on the car (or lack thereof) was always in the back of my mind. For me personally, it feels good to see my name only on the title since I was able to pay cash for the Spark. How many miles I put on the car is of no consequence; I don't even think about it. Whether purchasing instead of leasing turns out to be a good decision financially in the long run I won't know until the time comes when I decide to unload it, but as a second car to my gasmobile that I use for long distance travel, the Spark is a nearly perfect little buggy for local trips, and selling or trading it won't be anytime soon, especially now that my white HOV decals arrived in the mail yesterday. And the $500 discount on the 240v Bosch charging station that arrived last week was an added bonus.
 
Bilmat said:
Electricbowtie said:
You are not alone. I thought if the Feds and State wand willing to pay 1/3 the cost of my car, I couldn't pass it up. We love our Spark EV and already have 1800 miles on it in 2 months. The $500 off the Bosch charger was also a great incentive.
Click to expand...

I concur. I initially thought about leasing, but when I considered purchasing my 2LT at a $10,000 discount from its $27,820 MSRP price tag after the federal tax credit and the CA rebate, I decided that buying the car for $17,820 plus T&L was the way to go. When I have leased in the past the mileage I was putting on the car (or lack thereof) was always in the back of my mind. For me personally, it feels good to see my name only on the title since I was able to pay cash for the Spark. How many miles I put on the car is of no consequence; I don't even think about it. Whether purchasing instead of leasing turns out to be a good decision financially in the long run I won't know until the time comes when I decide to unload it, but as a second car to my gasmobile that I use for long distance travel, the Spark is a nearly perfect little buggy for local trips, and selling or trading it won't be anytime soon, especially now that my white HOV decals arrived in the mail yesterday. And the $500 discount on the 240v Bosch charging station that arrived last week was an added bonus.
Click to expand...


I believe we can also apply $1000 tax credit for installation the charger at home. someone correct me if I am wrong.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/30C
 
dutyfree said:
Bilmat said:
Electricbowtie said:
You are not alone. I thought if the Feds and State wand willing to pay 1/3 the cost of my car, I couldn't pass it up. We love our Spark EV and already have 1800 miles on it in 2 months. The $500 off the Bosch charger was also a great incentive.
Click to expand...

I concur. I initially thought about leasing, but when I considered purchasing my 2LT at a $10,000 discount from its $27,820 MSRP price tag after the federal tax credit and the CA rebate, I decided that buying the car for $17,820 plus T&L was the way to go. When I have leased in the past the mileage I was putting on the car (or lack thereof) was always in the back of my mind. For me personally, it feels good to see my name only on the title since I was able to pay cash for the Spark. How many miles I put on the car is of no consequence; I don't even think about it. Whether purchasing instead of leasing turns out to be a good decision financially in the long run I won't know until the time comes when I decide to unload it, but as a second car to my gasmobile that I use for long distance travel, the Spark is a nearly perfect little buggy for local trips, and selling or trading it won't be anytime soon, especially now that my white HOV decals arrived in the mail yesterday. And the $500 discount on the 240v Bosch charging station that arrived last week was an added bonus.
Click to expand...


I believe we can also apply $1000 tax credit for installation the charger at home. someone correct me if I am wrong.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/30C
Click to expand...

From what I understand you can only get a credit for 30% of what you spent.
 
Pegasus said:
Am I the only one wanting to purchase the car instead of leasing it? I understand the tech evolution value of leasing but I plan to put so many miles on this thing that it'll cost me too much in overages! Plus I wouldn't get the tax credit and will have to play the pricing/shady deal game with the dealer if I lease. (The game is simpler on a purchase.)

I figure it this way: we average about 50 miles per day between work, errands and evening & weekend local trips. Taking 2 weeks off for longer trips, that's still over 17K miles per year. No way I'm going to get a dealer to agree to that at a good price.
Click to expand...

I bought mine, also. My husband and I pay so much in taxes, we'll get the $7500 back. It was too good a deal for us to pass up. I also like being secure in the knowledge that no one can take the car away from me in 3 years like what happened to the owners of the EV-1s in the 90's. What the Spark's value will be at the end of 3 yrs. is anyone's guess. It is parked in the garage whenever it's home; that will help protect it and help maintain some of its value. What we'll have to wait and see is what type of battery longevity the Spark has and what cars are available in the future.
 
I leased the car and got a pretty good deal (as far as I know). I put $1k down (out the door/includes 1st month) and paying $199.98 monthly (that includes tax). The dealership had a special for National Plug-In Day (I think it was Chevrolet sponsored).

From what I understand my purchase price would be remaining payments plus the residual value after 36 months. One problem now on a potential purchase is I essentially forfeited the $7500 tax credit to US Bank, the company who the lease is through.

Having that said I think purchasing is not a bad option at all. I am very impressed with the car.

My biggest reservations to purchasing are around the battery and DC charging. I do not have DC charging on mine, 1LT. I also do not need it, but that assumes I only use the car as a commuter, 12k miles per year (max per lease). If I bought it I would drive it more, but then I would want the DC charging under those operating conditions. While I would not use the DC charging primarily, I am confident I would use it in some cases. I would also be interested seeing how the A123 battery performs with DC charging. I think Tesla batteries were designed with DC charging a consideration from the start. I wonder if Chevrolet took an opportunistic approach to the DC charging technology and if those requirements had been communicated to A123 in time for the battery to be developed appropriately so. DC charging is a great idea, but there is a reason why it has yet to be an option on production vehicles and I wonder what that reason is.

My thoughts.
 
Jay:

I think the reason for the lack of cars driving around with QC option is that there are not very many QC charging stations. In Philadelphia, we have zero(to my knowledge). My dealer never even tried to sell me on the QC option for my Mitsubishi I-MiEV...it was clearly worthess. Things may be chainging, as Nissan has committed to adding the QC stations to many of its dealers(though not compatible with the Spark EV). The more EV's that hit the road, the greater the demand will be for Quick Charging. It is a chicken or the egg situation, but I can foresee this very soon becoming a must have option. It's fine to say you'll drive the car only 50-60 miles per day(I am one of those who usually only do just that), but when you would like to drive more than that, your options are limited if you don't have QC. Even having a 6.6 on board charger is not as convenient as the ability to QC in 20-30 minutes. Not only does it make that immediate trip easier, bit it also facilitates charging for the following day. Starting from near zero you'll need time to zap back up to full for work the next day. Especially hard to do if you don't have easy access to 240V charging(I use almost exclusively the 110V charging at home).
Lou
 
gatedad said:
I think the reason for the lack of cars driving around with QC option is that there are not very many QC charging stations. In Philadelphia, we have zero(to my knowledge).
Click to expand...

There are zero everywhere except San Diego, CA, where the first SAE Combo Charger was opened last week. :)
http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/07/first-public-sae-combo-charger-evs-phevs-hits-san-diego/
 
Pegasus said:
Am I the only one wanting to purchase the car instead of leasing it? I understand the tech evolution value of leasing but I plan to put so many miles on this thing that it'll cost me too much in overages! Plus I wouldn't get the tax credit and will have to play the pricing/shady deal game with the dealer if I lease. (The game is simpler on a purchase.)

I figure it this way: we average about 50 miles per day between work, errands and evening & weekend local trips. Taking 2 weeks off for longer trips, that's still over 17K miles per year. No way I'm going to get a dealer to agree to that at a good price.
Click to expand...

You are not alone, I bought it too. My roundtrip commute is 65 miles a day, that rounds up at about 18K miles a year. For leasing dealer is charging me $290 a month for 36 month lease and it's cost me about the same as to buy the car when take the $7500 Federal Tax Credit into account.

I guess if you know you are going to have high mileage on the car then leasing isn't a good way to go..
 
I bought my Leaf and learned my lesson well. That is, to lease the Spark and not buy it. We opted for 15,000 mile per year at $248 per month, 3 years.

The reasons are simple. The resale value of EVs has turned into a real dog. I cannot sell my Leaf or I'll lose about 5,000 bucks for each year I owned it. No good. I have to wait for a new battery now. The range is down to 65 miles or less. (Yeah, they actually called it a 100-mile car when it came out). So I am at iMiev level now. A Costco car at 42,800 miles 27 months.

The tech in Spark may be better but it is better-but-unproven. You have no idea, despite the TMS on board, what your Spark will do at 42,000 miles 2 years down the road.

Also, competition is coming. Tesla Model L, the 35,000-dollar 200-mile car. So is, for that matter, 200-mile GM car of the same price range. All the while you're locked in to your Spark whose value by then is...a big question mark. Judging by the Leaf story not too hot.

Meanwhile, my lease cost me only 100-120 bucks a month in real money (gas savings, Ca rebate spread over 36 payments). I don't have to look past 3 years - and worry. The car is going bye-bye. It's done it's thing, and let's see what is available in 2016 with a double range. Most impoirtantly, my "total loss" on the car is...3,900 bucks. That's in 3 years. Compare that to my Leaf that cost 27,000 with all the rebates and such and is worth about 15 now. You see what I mean?

And let's face it. I leased it for my college commuter kid, because it it the cheapest alternative and was at the time we had to have a car for him. The ride is shaky, folks. I have spent enough time in it by now. It's cute and all, the interface needs a bulletin, it has bugs, after all it is a new car. It can be a challenge to keep going straight, and so on. You have to drive a Leaf to feel and understand the difference between a real car and a sparky golf cart. Sorry to say. It's side is shaped like a wind sail, just waiting for a gust of wind from the side to get blown off the freeway. I am actually telling my kid to watch it on windy days.

So, ultimately I am happy with the car for what it is, but I am very happy with my decision - an easy one too - to lease only.
 
Excellent analysis!

iletric said:
I bought my Leaf and learned my lesson well. That is, to lease the Spark and not buy it. We opted for 15,000 mile per year at $248 per month, 3 years.

The reasons are simple. The resale value of EVs has turned into a real dog. I cannot sell my Leaf or I'll lose about 5,000 bucks for each year I owned it. No good. I have to wait for a new battery now. The range is down to 65 miles or less. (Yeah, they actually called it a 100-mile car when it came out). So I am at iMiev level now. A Costco car at 42,800 miles 27 months.

The tech in Spark may be better but it is better-but-unproven. You have no idea, despite the TMS on board, what your Spark will do at 42,000 miles 2 years down the road.

Also, competition is coming. Tesla Model L, the 35,000-dollar 200-mile car. So is, for that matter, 200-mile GM car of the same price range. All the while you're locked in to your Spark whose value by then is...a big question mark. Judging by the Leaf story not too hot.

Meanwhile, my lease cost me only 100-120 bucks a month in real money (gas savings, Ca rebate spread over 36 payments). I don't have to look past 3 years - and worry. The car is going bye-bye. It's done it's thing, and let's see what is available in 2016 with a double range. Most impoirtantly, my "total loss" on the car is...3,900 bucks. That's in 3 years. Compare that to my Leaf that cost 27,000 with all the rebates and such and is worth about 15 now. You see what I mean?

And let's face it. I leased it for my college commuter kid, because it it the cheapest alternative and was at the time we had to have a car for him. The ride is shaky, folks. I have spent enough time in it by now. It's cute and all, the interface needs a bulletin, it has bugs, after all it is a new car. It can be a challenge to keep going straight, and so on. You have to drive a Leaf to feel and understand the difference between a real car and a sparky golf cart. Sorry to say. It's side is shaped like a wind sail, just waiting for a gust of wind from the side to get blown off the freeway. I am actually telling my kid to watch it on windy days.

So, ultimately I am happy with the car for what it is, but I am very happy with my decision - an easy one too - to lease only.
Click to expand...
 
That's what I worry about the most: range decrease over time and what will be available in 3 years. I plan on replacing my Prius with Tesla's Model L (or whatever it ends up being called) anyway (as long as their plans for the Supercharger network expansion hold up,) so buying a Spark EV won't prevent me from doing that. I would just be bummed if the Spark I own can only go like 50 miles after 3 years/50K miles, although that would still well-cover my wife's commute at least. Of course, there is the battery warranty which is good for 8 years or 100K miles, so that should cover me. But I can't find the terms of it anywhere, so what it actually warrants is anyone's guess.

For those of you that have purchased, can you post a copy of the battery and powertrain warranty terms and conditions? I haven't actually purchased my Spark EV yet so don't have them. (Mine is on order from the factory since they're really hard to get here in the central coast.)
 
Pegasus said:
...can you post a copy of the battery and powertrain warranty terms and conditions? I haven't actually purchased my Spark EV yet so don't have them. (Mine is on order from the factory since they're really hard to get here in the central coast.)
Click to expand...
No need for that. I suggest you turn to a specialist and get it in writing. Here is one who can answer all your questions.

Fire away...

Kristin
Volt and Spark EVAdvisor Team
An Associate of Morley Companies, Inc.
Spark Line: 855-477-2754
Email: [email protected]
SR# 71-1214870656
 
If you buy in CA, you are covered over GM warranty at 10 years and 150k miles so it may actually retain more value for resale if we decide to trade our Spark EV in for the latest tech in 5 or so years.
 
Except trade-ins are always wholesale, not private party or retail price. Dealer always gets you on trade-ins. They actually don't make much money on it either, just pass it on to used car lots. All dealer wants is to push new metal.

Be prepared to get next to nothing for your Spark EV from a dealer not only because - for some reason - EV trade-in value has been so bad, but also because in 3-5 years there will be much superior/advanced/higher-range EVs sitting on the lot. New ICE cars are not that much superior to the older ones upon trade-in. New EVs WILL BE much superior to the older ones upon trade-in. Who wants your 90 down to 70 mile car if they can buy a 200-500 range car I'm hoping we'll see on the lot by then. (Yes, they are promising a 1000-mile battery as well).

As I said above, my total loss on leased Spark will be $3,600 after 3 years. My total loss on my Leaf so far is 12,000 bucks over 2 years and 4 months. I am locked in, I don't want to take such a loss. So now I have to wait for a new lease on life in the form of a new battery. And at this time there is none to be had.
 
First, thanks for your thorough post. I have a few questions and comments:

iletric said:
The resale value of EVs has turned into a real dog. I cannot sell my Leaf or I'll lose about 5,000 bucks for each year I owned it. No good.
Click to expand...
Is your drop in resale value directly the result of the reduced range for your Leaf, ilectric?

iletric said:
The range is down to 65 miles or less.
Click to expand...
What were your charging habits? Did you charge to the 100% level or to the 80% (battery life extending) level? Note that the 2013 model now has a battery life warranty; if that warranty had been included on your Leaf, would your battery now qualify for warranty service?

iletric said:
Also, competition is coming. Tesla Model L, the 35,000-dollar 200-mile car. So is, for that matter, 200-mile GM car of the same price range.
Click to expand...
I'll believe it when I see them. Remember, the Tesla Model S was supposed to be $50K. It's nowhere close, since Tesla quickly discontinued the smallest battery option. Now, the Model S starts at $63,570 after tax incentives, and it gets much more expensive with common options like leather and "tech" (navigation). Plus, around the time these expected models are introduced, the tax incentives may no longer be available.
 
Re: resale value

It's used car market at work. I don't know if it's strictly the battery issues or the Blue Book or what makes used Leaf buyers value the cars the way they do. Or the fact that S model can be had for 20 grand, i.e. Nissan lowered the 2013 prices so dramatically. 2011 owners like myself were guinea pigs, buyng a 100-mile car. This is where we are today. It's like buiyng a stock that is at the very least supposed to hold its value. It drops and now all you can do is sit on it until it comes up again (new battery).

Re: charging habits/warranty

We charge 100% every night. The debate about its merits goes on at MNL site ever since the Leaf introduction, and after 2 years of use no one has put forth anything worthy that would prove 80% extends the batt life. In fact GM says not to do that, and charge 100% every time, while Nissan is dodgy about it. The battery is not used 100% anyway since it is a 24 kW with only 21 kW usable which calculates to 87%. It all seems like a numbers game to me and nothing else. Same goes for discharging to LBW and VLBW. It's all a bunch of nonsense as far as I am concerned. On the other hand, anything that heats up this battery is bad for it, whether it be ambient temp, aggressive driving or even QCing for that matter. In fact, in the beginning Nissan used to recommend NOT to QC too often and now is quiet about it. QCing heats up the battery to 7 bars, while I mostly run on 5 to 6. I think it's that bar 7 and up that is the trouble for this car.

I actually bought an extended warranty. I don't think I will be able to claim it, living in moderate, non-heat (AZ, TX) environ. I'm good for 100,000 miles, 5 years I believe. You have to drop down to 8 capacity bars (from 12) to qualify. I am at 11 now and it took almost 40,000 miles to get there. I am looking past the warranty already, scanning for the first brave manufacturer to bring their hardware to the market. All batteries are warranted, not just 2013. It's just that they are useless for most of the owners with exception of the above states.

Re: Tesla Model L.

That's a wait and see with regard to pricing, rebates' availability, etc. No crystal ball here on my side.
 
gglockner said:
First, thanks for your thorough post. I have a few questions and comments:

iletric said:
The resale value of EVs has turned into a real dog. I cannot sell my Leaf or I'll lose about 5,000 bucks for each year I owned it. No good.
Click to expand...
Is your drop in resale value directly the result of the reduced range for your Leaf, ilectric?

iletric said:
The range is down to 65 miles or less.
Click to expand...
What were your charging habits? Did you charge to the 100% level or to the 80% (battery life extending) level? Note that the 2013 model now has a battery life warranty; if that warranty had been included on your Leaf, would your battery now qualify for warranty service?

iletric said:
Also, competition is coming. Tesla Model L, the 35,000-dollar 200-mile car. So is, for that matter, 200-mile GM car of the same price range.
Click to expand...
I'll believe it when I see them. Remember, the Tesla Model S was supposed to be $50K. It's nowhere close, since Tesla quickly discontinued the smallest battery option. Now, the Model S starts at $63,570 after tax incentives, and it gets much more expensive with common options like leather and "tech" (navigation). Plus, around the time these expected models are introduced, the tax incentives may no longer be available.
Click to expand...

Today's (Sunday the 13th) San Jose Mercury News included a story about the opening of Tesla's new store in Palo Alto where people could test drive the Model S and look at the new Model X Crossover that, according to the paper, is expected to go on sale in 2015. No price has been set, but the article said it is expected to sell for between $70 and $90K, minus any tax credits or rebates that may available at the time. Photos of the car can be seen on Google Images.
 

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