Spark EV sputtering for the other 48?

I'm a member from one of the other 48 states that don't get the Chevy Spark EV anytime soon.

I continue to enjoy the observations of those that already have their Chevy Spark EV but it is not clear to me if they are selling well or just barely selling in California and Oregon. The dealer inventory I see seems to be a pretty steady 30-40 Spark EV's with little change week after week.

Luke warm interest? Dealers won't deal? GM restricting the flow?

Doesn't seem to be taking off like the Tesla although I grant you the Spark EV isn't a chick magnet and no Elon is promoting it.

I figure if demand is high enough on the west coast perhaps GM will reconsider selling it in the rest of the country. If interest is tepid on the west coast then if looks like it is doomed to stay a compliance vehicle.

REB

REB said:

I'm a member from one of the other 48 states that don't get the Chevy Spark EV anytime soon.

I continue to enjoy the observations of those that already have their Chevy Spark EV but it is not clear to me if they are selling well or just barely selling in California and Oregon. The dealer inventory I see seems to be a pretty steady 30-40 Spark EV's with little change week after week.

Luke warm interest? Dealers won't deal? GM restricting the flow?

Doesn't seem to be taking off like the Tesla although I grant you the Spark EV isn't a chick magnet and no Elon is promoting it.

I figure if demand is high enough on the west coast perhaps GM will reconsider selling it in the rest of the country. If interest is tepid on the west coast then if looks like it is doomed to stay a compliance vehicle.

REB

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I think the primary reason people aren't rushing to their Chevy dealer to purchase a Spark EV is that few people know it exists. There has been no commercial advertising that I have seen, and if the rumor I have heard that there is little or no profit in the car for the General, I don't expect to see many Spark EVs on the road anytime soon. In the two months I have owned mine, I have only seen two other Sparks, and both of those were gas models. Its relative rarity is fine with me. I was getting a little long in the tooth to continue riding my 850 pound Goldwing, so I sold it and began looking for something that was fun to drive and would fit in the garage next to my GS350. When I read a short article touting the performance of the Spark EV, I went to my local Chevy dealer and took a test drive, and when I learned I could basically get $10K off the sticker price due to the federal tax credit and the CA rebate, I decided that 17K plus T&L was a deal I couldn't turn down. That's the same price I paid for my Goldwing back in 2001. And it only got 40 mpg.

Bilmat:

I was in CA a few months ago, saw billboard ads for the Spark EV in San Francisco area, and also saw 3 Spark EV's on the highway, so there is "some" advertising going on and some people are buying the car. I think that part of what might be happening is that people want to be able to QC the cars and that option is not yet available. Although there is controversy regarding the possible availability of SAE chargers(vs the Nissan ChAdemo version), fact is that there is not any Spark EV yet sold that has the QC option. Once you own an EV, you realize that range anxiety is a misnomer. What it should be called is "charging anxiety". A Spark EV with 85 miles of range(at the least), most trips are well within the car's range. But when you need to go another 30-40 miles, the ability to charge up those additional miles is critical. Level II charging is fine for the most part, but there are times when you need to add back in another 50-60 miles and don't have the time to wait 5-6 hours to do it. being able to do that in 20 minutes is great. And right now you can't do that in a Spark EV. If they bring the SAE chargers on board and people can ad that option in, the ses cars will sell much better.

Lou

Every single one brought to Portland has been sold immediately. Supply is currently being limited. There are highway billboards advertising the Spark EV specifically here. Locally, I'm not seeing any sales dilemma, just a limited supply at the moment.

Bryce

gatedad said:

Bilmat:

I was in CA a few months ago, saw billboard ads for the Spark EV in San Francisco area, and also saw 3 Spark EV's on the highway, so there is "some" advertising going on and some people are buying the car. I think that part of what might be happening is that people want to be able to QC the cars and that option is not yet available. Although there is controversy regarding the possible availability of SAE chargers(vs the Nissan ChAdemo version), fact is that there is not any Spark EV yet sold that has the QC option. Once you own an EV, you realize that range anxiety is a misnomer. What it should be called is "charging anxiety". A Spark EV with 85 miles of range(at the least), most trips are well within the car's range. But when you need to go another 30-40 miles, the ability to charge up those additional miles is critical. Level II charging is fine for the most part, but there are times when you need to add back in another 50-60 miles and don't have the time to wait 5-6 hours to do it. being able to do that in 20 minutes is great. And right now you can't do that in a Spark EV. If they bring the SAE chargers on board and people can ad that option in, the ses cars will sell much better.

Lou

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Perhaps I'm not seeing a push to sell the Spark EV here in Fremont and the South Bay because it is overshadowed by the Tesla, which is built here and receives so much publicity. I often check out the local Chevy dealer ads in the Mercury News and the Spark EV seems to be conspicuously absent from most.

Perhaps the lack of a QC capability in the current Spark EV is a deal breaker for many potential customers, but I suspect there are many like me who are content to charge their Spark overnight in their garage so it will be ready to get them to and from work the following morning. Had the QC capability been an option (rumored to be around $500) when I bought my Spark two months ago, I would have turned it down. Having said that, it would not have stopped me from buying the car if it had added $500 to the cost and was standard equipment (also rumored), but I wouldn't have paid extra for it based on my needs. My 240v Bosch charging station fully charges my Spark in a few hours because I seldom drive it more than 40-50 miles a day. If it was my only car, however, my circumstances would be far different.

I also suspect that by the time the 20 minute QC stations come on line in any quantity, there will be so many QC capable EVs on the road that owners will often have to queue up to use them. A 20 minute charge to bring your battery up to 80 percent sounds very inviting, but not so much if there are two or three EVs in line ahead of you.

I live in Central California and at this time, the closest Spark EV is in Santa Barbara, 120 miles away from me. I had to travel 77 miles from home to pick up my Spark in Lompoc, and I haven't seen any more being listed for that dealership. There is no push to sell these wonderful little cars in my area. In fact when I first heard about the EV, I called my local Chevrolet dealer and they were surprised to hear Chevy had an electric Spark. Chevy is so underplaying these little cars that when one goes to their website you have to know they exist to find information about them. One has to click on "cars," then "Spark," then and only then does one see that Chevy has an all electric car.

It's such a great little car! It's such a shame that it isn't getting more buzz.

I don't think they are available. Plain and simple. Dealers have a bunch on order and they are waiting for shipments. Once they have them they'll sell like hotcakes.

I do suggest lease only to everyone. The cost of ownership is about 100 bucks a month so your total loss over 3 years is $3,600. New cars lose that kind of value in one year. Lease is much more cost effective.

The hundred bucks includes savings on fuel and Ca rebate spread over 3 years. See my cost analysis in the entry below...

http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3506

I just asked the salesman that I bought my Spark EV from in San Jose and he said they had sold about 25 of them and GM can't supply them fast enough to keep up with the sales.

Yup...

This is precisely the situation that all California Air Resource Board (CARB) compliance cars tend to be in, like the Honda Fit EV and Fiat 500e:

1) not advertised
2) limited production, even though demand is greater
3) sell only enough to satisfy CARB mandates
4) only sold in CARB states
5) no DC quick charging (although GM eventually will for extra cost)


Here's my list is which manufacturers are most militant and hosile about California Air Resources Board - Zero Emissions Vehicle (CARB-ZEV) compliance, and which ones really want to sell battery electric cars?

.. Manufacturer .. Model(s) .... A ....... B ...... C ...... D ..... E ..... F
1. Honda - F*t EV / FCEV ..... YES ..... YES ... YES ... YES ... NO ... YES
2. Toyota - R*v4 EV / FCEV... NO ..... YES ... YES ... YES ...YES ... YES
3. Chry/Fiat - Fi*at 500* ....... NO ..... YES ... YES ... YES ... NO ... YES
4. GM - Sp*rk EV ................. NO ..... YES ... YES .... NO ... NO ... YES
5. Ford - F*cus EV ............... NO ..... YES ... NO ... YES ... NO ... YES
6. Daimler - Smart/B-Class . NO ..... YES .... NO .... NO ... NO ... YES
7. BMW - *3 ........................ NO ..... NO .... NO .... NO ... NO ... NO (Frankenplug)
8. Nissan - LE*F ................. NO ..... NO .... NO .... NO ... NO ... NO (CHAdeMO)


Can't yet rank:


V.VW - eGolf ........................ ??? ..... YES .... ??? .... NO ... ??? ... ??? (Frankenplug?)
X. Hyundai - FCEV ................ ??? ..... ??? .... ??? .... NO ... ??? .... NO (Hydrogen)
Y. Kia - Soul EV .................... ??? ..... YES .... ??? .... NO ... ??? ... NO (CHAdeMO)
Z. Mazda - Demio EV ........... ??? ..... YES .... ??? .... NO ... ??? .... NO (CHAdeMO)


So, here is the criteria:

A. Lease Only to be crushed at lease return (no sales whatsoever)?
B. Converted car (not built on a purpose built EV chassis)?
C. Only sold in CARB states (not what the manufacturer says, but what they actually do). Only sold in minimal numbers to meet CARB requirements?
D. Loudly dismiss EV's and the CARB program, and generally announce how FEW they will produce?
E. Harass owners when their car is out of state with a warranty claim?
F. Without quick charge access on the compliance car?

************

First, let's be clear about the rules.

1. NOT EVERY CAR MAKER MUST COMPLY WITH CARB-ZEV. Currently, there are six "Large Vehicle Manufacturers" (LVM) that must produce Zero Emission Vehicles (ZEV) if they want to sell lots of oil burning cars in California, model years 2012-2014:

USA Big Three LVM's:

GM - about 2500 Sp*rk EV's
Ford - maybe 1500-2000 Ford F*cus EV's
Chrysler/Fiat - 491 F*at 500* for 2013 model year confirmed

Japan Big Three LVM's:

Toyota - 2600 R*v4 EV's announced
Nissan - 75,000 LE*F's so far!!
Honda - 1100 F*t EV's announced

For the 2015 and later model years, all these vehicle manufacturers must comply:

BMW, Fiat/Chrysler, Ford, General Motors, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, Daimler/Mercedes, Nissan, Toyota, and Volkswagen must comply with the new 2012 and later CARB-ZEV requirements. Four additional manufacturers would also be required to comply with the ZEV requirements, but would be allowed to meet their obligation with PHEVs (so they aren't included, since they won't make a true ZEV). Note that neither Mitsubishi, nor Tesla are on the list.

jsca72 said:

I had to travel 77 miles from home to pick up my Spark in Lompoc,

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Ahh, so you're the one who nabbed the "electric blue" one they had! If my wife wasn't particular about color, I might've gotten it first.

Fresh off the presses!!! The number one reason why GM won't be selling the Spark EV in non-CARB states:

"The biggest buyer of CARB-Zero Emission Vehicles (ZEV) credits was General Motors, with ZEV a total of 876.365 (that's 368.865 ZEV and 507.50 AT PZEV), followed by Chrysler with 551.197 (526.197 ZEV and 25 PZEV)."

Pegasus said:

jsca72 said:

I had to travel 77 miles from home to pick up my Spark in Lompoc,

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Ahh, so you're the one who nabbed the "electric blue" one they had! If my wife wasn't particular about color, I might've gotten it first.

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Yep. That was me. Have you been able to get one? It seems to be so difficult to find these little EV's in our area.

TonyWilliams said:

Fresh off the presses!!! The number one reason why GM won't be selling the Spark EV in non-CARB states:

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I don't know if I'd go that far. If anything, that's reason for them to make as many as they can for at least the CARB states: so they don't have to buy credits from anyone else. (Unless it's more expensive, even with the brand-bolstering green-cred value, to make a car than to buy credits.) In any case, that says nothing about non-CARB states. There I would expect typical supply and demand. (Though I guess it could be argued that the best place to test the market is in a(n eco-conscious, EV-friendly) state where so many have to be sold anyway.)

jsca72 said:

Yep. That was me. Have you been able to get one? It seems to be so difficult to find these little EV's in our area.

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It does indeed. I have not yet. Sunset tried for two weeks to trade another dealer near LA for one but they're all holding on to them (becasue they can lease them over MSRP) so Sunset ordered one from GM directly for me, so I'm just waiting for that to arrive. My current estimate is that it'll be here the first or second week of November. I hope that their placing an "as-sold" order with GM directly will register on the mothership's demand meter so they'll be that much more inclined to offer them nationwide.

jsca72 said:

It does indeed. I have not yet. Sunset tried for two weeks to trade another dealer near LA for one but they're all holding on to them (becasue they can lease them over MSRP) so Sunset ordered one from GM directly for me, so I'm just waiting for that to arrive. My current estimate is that it'll be here the first or second week of November. I hope that their placing an "as-sold" order with GM directly will register on the mothership's demand meter so they'll be that much more inclined to offer them nationwide.

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I'm glad you've got one on-order. It may be too late, but is Santa Barbara too far for you to drive? Graham Chevy lists two in-stock.

Pegasus said:

TonyWilliams said:

Fresh off the presses!!! The number one reason why GM won't be selling the Spark EV in non-CARB states:

Click to expand...

I don't know if I'd go that far. If anything, that's reason for them to make as many as they can for at least the CARB states: so they don't have to buy credits from anyone else.

Click to expand...

Typically, manufacturers selling compliance vehicles like the Spark EV lose a TON of money selling them, and GM is certainly no different. A recent post in another forum, "I had a chance recently to play with the "guts" of the Spark EV. The pack is almost exactly the same as a Fisker Karma A123 Amp20 pack except that it is in a different configuration/housing. The cooling plates are on the bottom as they are on the Karma's pack. Pack is rated for 10c (I believe that DC Fast Charge is in the 2-2.5c range) and is 336v. This thing is a bargain and probably costs Chevrolet 23k to manufacturer (13k in just the battery)".

So, no, it wouldn't make sense to make more of something that costs a manufacturer more to produce that it can recoup in states where regulations don't require that they be sold. No, GM won't likely ever sell the Spark EV in non-CARB states. Just this past fiscal year (ending just a few weeks ago on Sept 30, 2013), GM bought over 500 "grams per mile NMOG" credits from Toyota, in addition to the 368 other credits for ZEV. I'll bet that wasn't cheap!!! GM is the "biggest loser" in this game so far.

Since GM didn't earn any CARB-ZEV for the 2012 & 2013 model years, it could potentially cost them a fortune to buy yet more credits from other manufacturers for 2014 and beyond, from companies like auto manufacturer Tesla who made over $60 million selling those credits so far and Toyota, with whom GM already spent a small fortune. That's where the Spark EV comes in.

For model years 2012 to 2014, for GM to meet the CARB-ZEV 0.79% credit threshold, they need to cover 150,000 oil cars sold each year in California = 450,000 oil cars total * 0.79% ZEV credit = 3555 / 3 credits per 100 mile ZEV range car = 1185 Spark EVs (minimum) sold in California for those three model years. This is very close to what Honda must sell, for instance, with the Fit EV compliance car, but GM has started very, very late (so late, in fact, that it required the previously mentioned almost 900 total g/mi NMOG credits to be purchased in just one year).

So, whether the Spark EV is the absolute best car on the planet, or not, GM still has to sell 1185 minimum in California for 2012-2014. That means the price has to be low (like the $199 lease deals) to compete for customers against other compliance offerings from Fiat/Chrysler, Ford, Honda, Toyota and soon to be Hyundai (hydrogen car), Mercedes, Kia, Mazda, BMW and VW.

Current and near term CARB-ZEV compliance models:
Manufacturer ..... Model(s)

1. Honda - Fit EV / future Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle (FCEV)
2. Toyota - Rav4 EV / future FCEV
3. Chry/Fiat - Fiat 500e
4. GM - Spark EV
5. Ford - Focus EV
6. Daimler - Smart ED / B-Class ED / future FCEV
7. BMW - i3 / future FCEV
8. Nissan - LEAF / future FCEV (why, I have no idea... they sell ZEV credits)
9. VW - eGolf
10. Hyundai - FCEV
11. Kia - Soul EV
12. Mazda - Demio? EV

Note: neither Mitsubishi, nor Tesla are required to comply. Some, like Land Rover and Fuji Heavy Industries/Subaru are exempt

The game is heating up in the CARB game, and we are all the pawns.

... I hope that their placing an "as-sold" order with GM directly will register on the mothership's demand meter so they'll be that much more inclined to offer them nationwide.

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Not going to happen.

Just in case you don't believe me, here's the sales forecast for the SparkEV from GM:

Fleet Spark EV sales only in Canada, and no current plan for sales at all for Europe, as reported by:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1087919_chevy-spark-ev-electric-car-no-retail-sales-in-canada-europe

Chevy Spark EV Electric Car: No Retail Sales In Canada, Europe


It's a frequently asked question: Will the 2014 Chevrolet Spark EV be sold where I live?

(Assuming you don't already live in California or Oregon, where the subcompact electric car has been on sale since June--or South Korea, where it's made.)

General Motors had earlier announced that sales of the Spark EV would expand to Europe, and also to Canada.

Checking in on that promise with Randy Fox of GM Communications, we find the plan has changed...

"We have decided to defer the launch of the Spark EV in Europe," Fox said.

"The market for pure EVs is still in its infancy and volumes are rather low," he continued.

"We will carefully observe how the market develops over time, and react accordingly."

And there you have it: Consumers in Canada and Europe will not be able to buy a Chevrolet Spark EV...

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