Propane EV Heaters

Chevy Spark EV Forum

Help Support Chevy Spark EV Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

FutureFolly

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Messages
141
Does anyone else feel like having a built in propane heating system would help EVs dramatically? I just don't think asking someone to choose between freeze there butt off and knowing you will get to your destination. It's just not civilized. Of course the technology would have to be engineered from scratch, but it shouldn't take up much space and the safety risk seems minor.

Secondary question, how much would you pay for a propane heater as an add-on feature?
 
I don't think burning more hydrocarbons, even to heat, is in the spirit of the vehicle. Are the electric seat warmers not adequate? I hope in future models they put in a solar panel like the Prius to help run the auxiliary equipment.

Heating wouldn't be a concern for me, just put on some more layers to stay warm. I would be more worried about hot summers, and having to roll down windows to stay cool, which would increase drag above a certain speed. Guess I could put in some misty mates with cold water to get a swamp cooler effect.
 
I wouldn't buy it with a propane heater, period. It defeats a good part of the purpose of the car. :eek:

The heated seats go a long way to making the cabin comfortable. Why they even seem to be therapeutic for an aching back. ;)
 
It's true that propane heaters would mean the Spark wouldn't be a true "Zero Emissions Vehicle." What is largely missed by this label is that it is almost entirely ideological in nature. Even in California the carbon emissions from electricity are not negligible. Using a heater in any form will always result in carbon entering the atmosphere.

True, if you have solar on the roof of your house and never use public charging, someone can say they personally are net carbon neutral, and I fully support that personal philosophy. I am very pro-environment, but I want the technology of EVs to grow to reach everyone that can personally benefit from buying one. That means removing weaknesses, not just improving efficiency and range. People are selfish, and engineers will never change that.

Currently, EVs are fair weather vehicles, which is fine for California but not the Northeast or the Rustbelt. It's just an inherent weakness of battery vehicles. Cold weather cuts range just from running the battery heaters. Also, as the air temp drops the seat heater are less satisfying. With a propane/water heat exchanger, both Winter range and comfort could be almost as good as the rest of the year.

Hot weather has also shown to prematurely age batteries of Nissan Leafs in Texas. The Spark's battery cooling system maybe enough to counter this, but it's another part of the stigma that future EVs will have to counter.

I am trying to think as mass market as possible. Of course, I wasn't really thinking about California with the propane heater idea. It doesn't get very cold here, and EV buyers are more likely to be motivated by ideological reasons. I totally accept that wearing layers is the environmentally friendly way to drive an EV in the Winter.

Something people don't realize about the hydrocarbons is how much heat can be produced from a very small amount fuel. The equivalent of one tank of gasoline would probably be enough propane to heat the Spark for 10 years of Winters.

I just love the Spark EV so much I want it to be perfect. : )
 
This technology doesn't need to be engineered from scratch, its existed for a long time.

Off the shelf diesel-air heater: http://www.espar.com/fileadmin/data/countrysites/EB_Kanada/pdf/Airtronic_D2-D4-D5_Spec_sheet.pdf

Including 100% biodiesel: http://www.eberspaecher.com/en/fuel-operated-heaters/product-portfolio/air-heaters/products.html

Safer than compressed natural gas in accidents. There are also compressed natural gas heaters from Eberspaecher and its competitors being used in prototype EVs in Europe, if I can find the link again I'll post it.
 
I've been convinced for some time that until BEV batteries get a lot bigger, or else insulation and heating/defrosting get a lot more efficient, offering a fuel-fired auxiliary heater for BEVs is the way to go in climates where the current heat pumps and resistive heaters are energy hogs. For everyone except ideological purists, staying warm and comfortable while being able to get to their destination is more important than being able to say "I'm greener than thou, because I will happily freeze or bundle up, and/or drive at ridiculously slow speeds rather than compromise my principles". If BEVs are ever to expand beyond the tiny niche represented by the ideological fanatics/lunatic fringe, they'll have to accept that 80% purity of a lot is far better than 100% purity of very few.

That being said, having considered the advantages and disadvantages of various fuels, I don't think propane is the way to go. I don't see the auto company lawyers signing off on the liability issues involved with swappable tanks or their threaded connections, even though availability at 7-11s and hardware stores etc. is fairly good. And there aren't a whole lot of direct propane refueling hoses accessible to the general public, which suffer from the same threaded connection issue. There can also be safety and operational issues in cold temps.

I think it's got to be widely available liquid fuels with permanent tanks, low pressure supply and storage and no threaded connections, and that means gas or diesel. Starting diesel in cold weather can be a problem, so I think gasoline wins by process of elimination, although ideally we'd have a multi-fuel heater than could burn everything from ethanol, methanol or other biofuels, gas, diesel, or kerosene.
 
Just curious where you are from and at what Temps you are complaining about.

I live in New England, cold but not that bad... Then again my daily commute is 16 miles round trip. But I plan on keeping my pick up for Winter driving. The town I work in SUCKS at plowing :(
 
tigger19687 said:
Just curious where you are from and at what Temps you are complaining about.

I live in New England, cold but not that bad... Then again my daily commute is 16 miles round trip. But I plan on keeping my pick up for Winter driving. The town I work in SUCKS at plowing :(
Well, I live in Santa Barbara, California, which has some of the best weather in country. Never particularly hot or cold, which makes it ideal EV territory. I'm mostly thinking of the North-East and Rust Belt states.

I just plain don't like electric heating because I hate inefficiency. An electric heater can never be more efficient than the power plant that produced the electricity to power it. In California, we have a lower carbon footprint for our electricity, but combined-cycle natural gas plants are still only about 60% efficient. A propane heater could easily beat that.

I understand if you go electric with solar or have strong ideological reasons behind going electric then this logic doesn't matter to you, but I want electric cars to grow beyond the hardcore environmentalists.
 
Yeah, I too would not buy it if it had that.
It is all about savings on gas and Propane is not what I would want on a car anyway.

I could deal with it being a little chilly, I mean I love in Boston haha.
 
Tigger: I am not sure if you have an EV or not(I only mention this because you indicate Boston as your location and they don't sell Spark EV's there)so I question if you are an interested observer or an actual EV driver. Not meant as an insult but just that Boston ghets pretty cold in the winter. I am in Philly and spent most of the winter driving with no or limited cabin heat, due to the hit on the battery that the heater causes. If there is ONE thing that truly makes me question EV driving it is the heater issue. On many days, I can be fairly comfortable with no heatar as long as I am wearing good gloves, heavy coat and such, But it is definitely NO FUN doing that. A larger battery would help mininimize the heat issue as it would allow us to drive with the heater on and not be so concerned that we are using up the battery and our range. Until then, until a larger affordable battery is out there for the little cars(I drive the Mitsubishi I-MiEV). I would instantly use a propane heater if one existed that was completley safe and installed by the dealer or Mitsubishi. If we can't have larger batteries, get these heaters asap. I cnnot say this stronlgy enough, it gets old REAL FAST when you freeze your b_tt off every day. Kind of takes the fun out of driving EV. Thankfully that really only lasts about 4 months.
Lou
 
tigger19687 said:
Yeah, I too would not buy it if it had that.
It is all about savings on gas and Propane is not what I would want on a car anyway.

I could deal with it being a little chilly, I mean I love in Boston haha.
Since it would be an option, you wouldn't be forced to buy it. But after your first winter spent bundled up, having to wipe the window with a cloth to see out because you can't afford to run the defroster if you want to reach your destination, chances are you'd say "Okay, this is ridiculous. So I'll use a little fuel a couple of months a year - I'll still not be using gas to _drive_ all year long, and will have reduced my GHG footprint only a little less than if I were 'pure'. Using electricity for space heating is idiotically inefficient in any case, and that electricity (in Mass.) is probably being generated by burning natural gas (63%) or coal (12%) anyway."
 
gra said:
tigger19687 said:
Yeah, I too would not buy it if it had that.
It is all about savings on gas and Propane is not what I would want on a car anyway.

I could deal with it being a little chilly, I mean I love in Boston haha.
Since it would be an option, you wouldn't be forced to buy it. But after your first winter spent bundled up, having to wipe the window with a cloth to see out because you can't afford to run the defroster if you want to reach your destination, chances are you'd say "Okay, this is ridiculous. So I'll use a little fuel a couple of months a year - I'll still not be using gas to _drive_ all year long, and will have reduced my GHG footprint only a little less than if I were 'pure'. Using electricity for space heating is idiotically inefficient in any case, and that electricity (in Mass.) is probably being generated by burning natural gas (63%) or coal (12%) anyway."


Amen brother.
An unvented propane heater gives off water vapour as a byproduct of combustion. Which will contribute to windshield fogging.
As far as an electric car being green? It's best use is to make fellow environmentalists green with envy as long as the power is sourced from fossil fuel.
Of course for the few that are really serious, have deep pockets and can use tools. Charging with solar and/or wind is a winner. Rare application indeed.
The electric scooter really shines in the low operating costs by not having to purchase over taxed gasoline or diesel. Charging for free at work just makes it even sweeter.
Quit being a martyr and dial in the defroster heater heat so you can see. And crank up the AC in the summer.
Pre-cool or pre-heat the vehicle while still connected to utility power.
 
buickanddeere said:
Amen brother.
An unvented propane heater gives off water vapour as a byproduct of combustion. Which will contribute to windshield fogging.
As far as an electric car being green? It's best use is to make fellow environmentalists green with envy as long as the power is sourced from fossil fuel.
Of course for the few that are really serious, have deep pockets and can use tools. Charging with solar and/or wind is a winner. Rare application indeed.
The electric scooter really shines in the low operating costs by not having to purchase over taxed gasoline or diesel. Charging for free at work just makes it even sweeter.
Quit being a martyr and dial in the defroster heater heat so you can see. And crank up the AC in the summer.
Pre-cool or pre-heat the vehicle while still connected to utility power.
The propane and heat exchanger would have to be on the engine compartment side of the firewall for safety/crash reasons, so you wouldn't get any exhaust into the ventilation air. I am assuming that the design would be very similar to how traditional heating cores work, except the loop would cycle through a small heat exchanger, instead of the engine. The electric heating system could mostly stay in place.

My TDI Sportwagen has something similar. It has an electric heating core layered into the coolant heating core because in very cold conditions diesels have trouble getting up to sufficient temp to heat the cabin.

You're thinking of how gasoline heaters in air-cooled cars used to work. They were supposed to be vented heat exchangers, but holes would rust through and give you CO poisoning. The fire risk was substantial too. They were just a bad idea in general...

I do appreciate your support of a future where EVs are more than just a badge of environmentalism.
 
FutureFolly said:
You're thinking of how gasoline heaters in air-cooled cars used to work. They were supposed to be vented heat exchangers, but holes would rust through and give you CO poisoning. The fire risk was substantial too. They were just a bad idea in general...

Some old Volkswagens and Corvairs had gasoline heaters. They kept you toasty but they had multiple issues.

My opinions may be colored by the usually mild western Oregon winters, but for most of the time the heated seats keep me comfortable. I'm not sure how the cabin heater works (heat pump?) but it's better than the Leaf and I'm finding it not to be as much of a range killer as I thought it would be. I took a test drive in one, turned on the heat, and saw the range drop by 20 miles - bye bye Datsun. It must have had resistance elements.
 
emv said:
FutureFolly said:
You're thinking of how gasoline heaters in air-cooled cars used to work. They were supposed to be vented heat exchangers, but holes would rust through and give you CO poisoning. The fire risk was substantial too. They were just a bad idea in general...

Some old Volkswagens and Corvairs had gasoline heaters. They kept you toasty but they had multiple issues.

My opinions may be colored by the usually mild western Oregon winters, but for most of the time the heated seats keep me comfortable. I'm not sure how the cabin heater works (heat pump?) but it's better than the Leaf and I'm finding it not to be as much of a range killer as I thought it would be. I took a test drive in one, turned on the heat, and saw the range drop by 20 miles - bye bye Datsun. It must have had resistance elements.
The heater in the 2013-2014 LEAF S (and all pre-2013 model LEAFs of any trim) was a pure resistive unit, which can easily suck 20-30% of the range, esp. if you're also using the defroster. Some owners have seen even greater range losses, up to 50% in well below zero conditions this past winter. The 2013 and subsequent LEAF SV and SL have heat pumps and the resistive unit. The heat pump is very efficient in mild winter climates like the west coast and spring/fall in most of the U.S., but in single digit (F) and colder temps no more efficient than the resistive unit.
 
Back
Top