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 Post subject: DC fast charging: J1772 CCS vs CHAdeMO vs Supercharger, etc.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:48 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:35 am
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Discuss DC fast charge standards such as J1772 CCS aka Frankenplug, CHAdeMO, Tesla's Supercharger, etc. here.

We can discuss technical aspects (well, I'm not the best guy for that), players on each side, seriousness of their BEV/PHEV programs, current and future DC FC deployments, protocols, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: DC fast charging: J1772 CCS vs CHAdeMO vs Supercharger,
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:39 am 
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I'm personally hopeful about Tesla's Superchargers because they're 1) inexpensive to build 2) being deployed rapidly and 3) support the highest charging rates (90kW now, soon 120kW.)

I would expect that whichever method ends up with the widest deployment (read: USA-wide) in the least amount of time will "win." I understand that's currently CHAdeMO, but Tesla is hot on their heels and none of the options have achieved country-wide saturation yet, so the jury's still out until that happens, IMHO.

Regardless, I expect to see adapters for cars that use other than whatever wins, as Tesla currently has available for their cars to use CHAdeMO. Further, once adapters are available to go from anything to anything else, then none of this really even matters, does it? At that point, all we'd care about is which stations can charge the fastest.


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 Post subject: Re: DC fast charging: J1772 CCS vs CHAdeMO vs Supercharger,
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:25 am 
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Pegasus wrote:
Regardless, I expect to see adapters for cars that use other than whatever wins, as Tesla currently has available for their cars to use CHAdeMO. Further, once adapters are available to go from anything to anything else, then none of this really even matters, does it? At that point, all we'd care about is which stations can charge the fastest.


No, there's not going to be legal adaptors available to use Tesla Superchargers in other cars whose manufacturer has not paid a licensing agreement to Tesla.

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Contrary to many folks here, I do NOT own a LEAF.


Last edited by TonyWilliams on Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DC fast charging: J1772 CCS vs CHAdeMO vs Supercharger,
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:09 am 
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TonyWilliams wrote:
No, there's not going to be legal adaptors available to use Tesla Superchargers in other cars who's manufacturer has not paid a licensing agreement to Tesla.


What about third-party companies that want to produce such adapters (like Leviton, Schneider Electric, GE, etc.)? I don't see any reason they wouldn't make an agreement with Tesla if the potential market is large enough. Or Tesla could just make their own since the CEO's stated goal is to increase electrically-driven miles as much as possible.


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 Post subject: Re: DC fast charging: J1772 CCS vs CHAdeMO vs Supercharger,
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:54 am 
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Pegasus wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:
No, there's not going to be legal adaptors available to use Tesla Superchargers in other cars who's manufacturer has not paid a licensing agreement to Tesla.


What about third-party companies that want to produce such adapters (like Leviton, Schneider Electric, GE, etc.)? I don't see any reason they wouldn't make an agreement with Tesla if the potential market is large enough. Or Tesla could just make their own since the CEO's stated goal is to increase electrically-driven miles as much as possible.


I wouldn't exclude that from happening, but expect the adaptor to cost $2500 or more.

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Contrary to many folks here, I do NOT own a LEAF.


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 Post subject: Re: DC fast charging: J1772 CCS vs CHAdeMO vs Supercharger,
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:26 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:31 pm
Posts: 145
Location: Southern California
Pegasus wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:
No, there's not going to be legal adaptors available to use Tesla Superchargers in other cars who's manufacturer has not paid a licensing agreement to Tesla.


What about third-party companies that want to produce such adapters (like Leviton, Schneider Electric, GE, etc.)? I don't see any reason they wouldn't make an agreement with Tesla if the potential market is large enough. Or Tesla could just make their own since the CEO's stated goal is to increase electrically-driven miles as much as possible.

All I know is that if I spent $100,000 for a loaded Model S and pulled in to a Tesla Supercharger station to find a line of Spark EV's and Leafs using the EVSE's I'd be really pissed off. :x


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 Post subject: Re: DC fast charging: J1772 CCS vs CHAdeMO vs Supercharger,
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:48 pm 
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA
markcmann wrote:
All I know is that if I spent $100,000 for a loaded Model S and pulled in to a Tesla Supercharger station to find a line of Spark EV's and Leafs using the EVSE's I'd be really pissed off. :x

LOL!

Well, a Model S w/Supercharging enabled starts at a little past $73K, before tax credits/incentives.


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 Post subject: Re: DC fast charging: J1772 CCS vs CHAdeMO vs Supercharger,
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:18 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:12 pm
Posts: 220
As consumers, we have to vote with our pocketbooks what we want to see when it comes to features like DC fast charging. It's really despicable that GM is making the fast charging an optional feature instead of having it standard on all cars; I do hope that in the next model year of the spark, that this feature is standard. But for the time being, I'm going to support putting on the road another DC fast charging car with the hopes of winning over the pessimists who think that EVs are a joke and impractical. It may be that I'll never use the DC fast charging capability even once over the lifetime of the vehicle, BUT if this charging standard does become more widespread over the next 6 - 8 years and I don't have this capability, I would sorely regret not having it. Also, if it is not rolled out, at least I made my "vote" for what I'd like to see as a standard in electric cars- these vehicles only viable future is fast charging, the masses will not be won over from a 4 -6 hour charge time.

Also, it makes sense to me that new DC chargers that are installed will have both Chademo and SAE plugs, either due to regulation (as posters on the Nissan Leaf Forum have linked to) or because a clear winner to the standard war really hasn't been determined as of yet. If this were the HD-DVD vs. Blue Ray war, the battle lines have just been drawn and who knows who will be deemed victor. In the end, it may be Tesla who wins out, but only time will tell. Progress has been made with standardization which makes me optimistic. The original Rav 4 EV's and GM EV1 had those paddle plugs that are now obsolete, but in this newest generation all cars have the same standard level I and II ports. So given it took a decade for that to be sorted out, we may not know until around 2020 which level III plug type comes out on top. I don't even hope it's SAE (though it would be convenient for me and my spark), just as long as there is an agreement.


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 Post subject: Re: DC fast charging: J1772 CCS vs CHAdeMO vs Supercharger,
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:35 pm 
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA
xylhim wrote:
As consumers, we have to vote with our pocketbooks what we want to see when it comes to features like DC fast charging. It's really despicable that GM is making the fast charging an optional feature instead of having it standard on all cars; I do hope that in the next model year of the spark, that this feature is standard. But for the time being, I'm going to support putting on the road another DC fast charging car with the hopes of winning over the pessimists who think that EVs are a joke and impractical. It may be that I'll never use the DC fast charging capability even once over the lifetime of the vehicle, BUT if this charging standard does become more widespread over the next 6 - 8 years and I don't have this capability, I would sorely regret not having it. Also, if it is not rolled out, at least I made my "vote" for what I'd like to see as a standard in electric cars- these vehicles only viable future is fast charging, the masses will not be won over from a 4 -6 hour charge time.

DC FC (CHAdeMO) port is not standard on the Leaf either.

On the '13 Leaf, it's optional on the S and SV trims (via a package). It's standard on the SL trim.

For '11 and '12, there were only 2 trims: SV and SL. The S trim was the new cheap trim starting w/'13. IIRC, on '11 Leaf, you could only get the CHAdeMO port as an option on the highest (SL) trim. Per http://www.autoblog.com/2011/07/19/2012 ... equipment/, for '12, it became standard on SL but unavailable on lower trim, SV.

Again, there are over 300 CHAdeMO DC FCs in the US, and over 3000 worldwide. In the US, many of them are on http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/el ... ghways.htm in WA and OR. It let TonyWilliams fly thru those states when he did BC2BC 2012 (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=8879, a few videos at http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC_NyzB ... VTw/videos). There's also a whole bunch in TN, since Nissan NA HQ is in Franklin, TN.

DC FC being enabled on the Tesla Model S isn't standard either. You need to have the 60 kwh or greater battery. For that model, you have pay $2000 have it enabled (or $2500 after delivery) for "free (Super)charging for life" (of the car). Or, you need to spend $10K extra for the 85 kwh battery, where Supercharging enabling is included.

Now that I think about it, I can't think of any US market EV w/DC FC standard on the base trim level. For all of them, it's optional (either as an option, package or higher trim). The rest don't have it at all. No US PHEVs have that capability either.

BTW from viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3550&p=4864#p4864
xylhim wrote:
I'm patiently waiting for the DC fast charging option to be made available. Yes, I know there is only that one charging station in San Diego that supports the SAE connector, and yes, I know it may take a while for the roll out of this infrastructure.
...
An electric car is a great investment for the future, and I'm going to make the bet that SAE will be rolled out more quickly than was the case for the CHademo standard.

What makes you say the bolded part?


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 Post subject: Re: DC fast charging: J1772 CCS vs CHAdeMO vs Supercharger,
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:02 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:12 pm
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I think it will be rolled out more quickly because the blink stations with CHAdeMO already have the circuitry to handle the voltage/amperage of DC chargers, so that's one barrier of entry less for SAE than starting from nothing with the original CHAdeMO stations. Not sure if blink plans to unroll SAE wide-scale, but I recall reading one post around here where the option appeared to be installed in a yet to be opened blink station in the Sacramento area.


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