cwerdna
Posts: 479
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:35 am
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

installation + ongoing costs for public L2 & DC FC stations

Tue May 06, 2014 12:55 am

Post articles, sources, and info about typical costs to install public L2 stations along w/ongoing costs (e.g. maintenance, electricity (in cents per kWh, demand charges, etc.), repairs, etc.

I'll start.

http://blog.rmi.org/blog_2014_04_29_pul ... tion_costs
http://web.archive.org/web/201407011144 ... 7-3-12.pdf- these are for their 25 kW vs. 50 kW CHAdeMO DC FCs

As I posted at http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/vie ... 5434#p5434
Information provided by Nissan at Plugin 2013 indicates average cost for hardware and installation at dealers for the DC FC is $49K.
(The above are of course CHAdeMO and would likely include the $15.5K hardware cost of http://nissanqc.com/.)

edit: Updated Fuji Electric link since the page to point to archive.org version since the original URL is now 404.
Last edited by cwerdna on Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TonyWilliams
Posts: 572
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:23 pm

Re: installation + ongoing costs for public L2 & DC FC stati

Wed May 07, 2014 6:37 am

As I'm probably the only regular poster who actually owns part of a DC charger installation (the first one on the ChargePoint network), let me first say that the method of charger communication with the car (CAN, PLC) and the physical plug on the end (Supercharger, CHAdeMO, CCS Combo1 or Combo2, GB/T, etc) has very little affect on the cost of installing a DC charger.

What does matter are where the utility service is and how big of a transformer is needed. If a bunch of trenching through concrete is required, the cost skyrockets.

Then, the electrical utilities vary a lot as to costs for hook up, permits, and the single biggest variable is demand fee charges.

Demand fees are a surcharge to the normal electrical tariff that can add thousands of dollars to the ongoing cost of a DC charger installation.
Contrary to many folks here, I do NOT own a LEAF.

tigger19687
Posts: 204
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:24 am
Location: Boston

Re: installation + ongoing costs for public L2 & DC FC stati

Thu May 08, 2014 4:06 am

:Demand fees are a surcharge to the normal electrical tariff that can add thousands of dollars to the ongoing cost of a DC charger installation."

Is this all over or just in Cali ?
Just curious.

I was thinking that most of the chargers were on Private property (office building, supermarket, mall etc) So wouldn't they be the one doing it all ?

cwerdna
Posts: 479
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:35 am
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: installation + ongoing costs for public L2 & DC FC stati

Thu May 08, 2014 9:23 am

tigger19687 wrote::Demand fees are a surcharge to the normal electrical tariff that can add thousands of dollars to the ongoing cost of a DC charger installation."

Is this all over or just in Cali ?
Just curious.

I was thinking that most of the chargers were on Private property (office building, supermarket, mall etc) So wouldn't they be the one doing it all ?
Demand charges are NOT a California utility only thing.

At least in PG&E land (covers much of Nor Cal), they're not on residential schedules but are on certain types of commercial schedules. But, I've heard of some places outside of CA where they even put demand fees on residential!

TonyWilliams
Posts: 572
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:23 pm

Re: installation + ongoing costs for public L2 & DC FC stati

Fri May 09, 2014 7:00 pm

cwerdna wrote:
tigger19687 wrote::Demand fees are a surcharge to the normal electrical tariff that can add thousands of dollars to the ongoing cost of a DC charger installation."

Is this all over or just in Cali ?
Just curious.

I was thinking that most of the chargers were on Private property (office building, supermarket, mall etc) So wouldn't they be the one doing it all ?
Demand charges are NOT a California utility only thing.

At least in PG&E land (covers much of Nor Cal), they're not on residential schedules but are on certain types of commercial schedules. But, I've heard of some places outside of CA where they even put demand fees on residential!

Demand fees generally start at 20kW over a 15 minute average. The cost for these charges is so varied that it might take a book to detail them all.

But, in a place like San Diego, if I pull 50kW once per month for 15 minutes, the charge is about $1000 per month, excluding the actual cost of electricity.
Contrary to many folks here, I do NOT own a LEAF.

cwerdna
Posts: 479
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:35 am
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: installation + ongoing costs for public L2 & DC FC stati

Fri May 09, 2014 9:17 pm

tigger19687 wrote::Demand fees are a surcharge to the normal electrical tariff that can add thousands of dollars to the ongoing cost of a DC charger installation."

Is this all over or just in Cali ?
Just curious.

I was thinking that most of the chargers were on Private property (office building, supermarket, mall etc) So wouldn't they be the one doing it all ?
I found http://www.nstar.com/ss3/business/rates ... /rates.asp for Boston. Search for demand.

I see
B1 - General (with a demand meter) (G-1) (MDTE 130 (PDF))
This rate is for small commercial/industrial customers with demand of less then 10 kW. Demand meters are mandatory for all new customers with either three-phase service, or single-phase service exceeding 100 amperes. Customers with a demand exceeding 12 kW in any month will be placed on rate B2.
...
B2 - General (G-2) (MDTE 131 (PDF))
This rate is for medium-sized commercial and industrial customers where the service voltage is less than 10,000 volts and the monthly demand is greater than 10 kW but less than 200 kW.
I'm definitely not the right guy to explain how demand charges are calculated but I have heard of the typical 15 or 30-minute windows. Googling for how demand charges work electricity turns up numerous references.

TonyWilliams
Posts: 572
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:23 pm

Re: installation + ongoing costs for public L2 & DC FC stati

Sat May 10, 2014 8:56 pm

The way it works at San Diego Gas & Electric is this way (dollar amounts are estimates):

19.9kW - no demand fee surcharge
20kW - $26 per kW = $520 monthly
50kW - $26 per kW = $1300 monthly
Contrary to many folks here, I do NOT own a LEAF.

Chocula
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 7:20 pm

Re: installation + ongoing costs for public L2 & DC FC stati

Sat May 10, 2014 9:18 pm

With those rates, it might make sense to install batteries or something in the charging station to buffer the load so you never pull more than 19 kW from the grid. One of our data centers uses flywheels to provide power between an outage and the generators starting up, the others use batteries.

FutureFolly
Posts: 141
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:22 pm

Re: installation + ongoing costs for public L2 & DC FC stati

Sat May 10, 2014 10:43 pm

Demand charges seem like the biggest barrier possible to commercial DC FC stations. During the slow demand acceleration period when DC FC stations see minimal use breaking would be almost impossible.

This actually seems worth lobbying state representatives in California about. Exempting DC FC stations from demand charges until their actual energy consumption exceeds a certain number of kwh seems reasonable or some number of kWs must be deducted from the stations normal demand charge calculations.

The more EV friendly California gets the more likely EV manufacturers will make more large EV related investments in the state, Tesla especially. Only supporting the sale of EVs is strategically weak because lack of charging infrastructure turns off a lot of potential buyers. Demand charges also limit how many businesses will be willing to support L2 charging for their employees.

TonyWilliams
Posts: 572
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:23 pm

Re: installation + ongoing costs for public L2 & DC FC stati

Sat May 10, 2014 11:33 pm

Chocula wrote:With those rates, it might make sense to install batteries or something in the charging station to buffer the load so you never pull more than 19 kW from the grid. One of our data centers uses flywheels to provide power between an outage and the generators starting up, the others use batteries.
Of course, Tesla is already using batteries (and solar) at some Supercharger stations.

Here's a CHAdeMO with batteries:

http://www.jfe-eng.co.jp/en/news/2011/20110928.html


JFE Engineering has already marketed a rapid charging system called RAPIDAS which enables 80% charging in 30 minutes. This charger, which uses a battery as an internal charger... By holding power receiving capacity to 20 kW or less, it has won high marks from customers who are not able to increase their power receiving capacity. In commercializing the Super RAPIDAS, JFE developed a hybrid type which also provides the function of the existing RAPIDAS.
Contrary to many folks here, I do NOT own a LEAF.

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