TonyWilliams
Posts: 572
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:23 pm

Re: My first DC Fast Charging Experience

Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:40 am

nozferatu wrote:
Chaconzies wrote:I'm just saying it's cheap to add-on the SAE combo and in the 3 years I have the lease hopefully eVgo will be developed enough to get me to San Diego, Santa Barbara or Riverside and back without having to charge overnight.
Indeed I'm sure they will. It's going to grow just like any other network and will allow for more options, more competition, lower prices, and better stuff for everyone all around. Win-win.
Adding incompatible standards never aids any product in the market. If GM cars could only drive on GM designed roads, it's likely they wouldn't do well. The same is true of "refueling" standards; the CCS Combo1 is an odd duck in this game, and much like your other views that miss the mark (GM makes money on Spark EV when every other car company losses millions on their compliance Zero Emission Vehicle), you are wrong to think that a GM and German car only standard is promoting EV's.

Quite the opposite; it has generated confusion in the market place for EV consumers, but most importantly to GM, it has stalled public infrastructure in some markets while regulators / decision makers wait to see "who wins".

The reality is that the GM and German car charging standard has not grown commensurate with other charge standards. It is grossly late to the game and not actively supported by the auto manufacturers who are members.

Protocol .......... US Deployed . World Deployed . US Cars . Worldwide Cars

CCS Combo1 ........ 10 ....................10 ................. 150 ............. 150 ... (moribund)

CCS Combo2 ........ 0 ......................50 .................... 0 ............. 800 ... (moribund)

CHAdeMO ......... 600 ................ 3,800 ............. 50,000 ....... 140,000 (growing fast)

Supercharger .... 600 ................... 650 ............. 25,000 ......... 35,000 (extreme growth)
Contrary to many folks here, I do NOT own a LEAF.

gra
Posts: 249
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:52 pm
Location: Inner East S.F. Bay Area

Re: My first DC Fast Charging Experience

Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:05 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:
nozferatu wrote:
Chaconzies wrote:I'm just saying it's cheap to add-on the SAE combo and in the 3 years I have the lease hopefully eVgo will be developed enough to get me to San Diego, Santa Barbara or Riverside and back without having to charge overnight.
Indeed I'm sure they will. It's going to grow just like any other network and will allow for more options, more competition, lower prices, and better stuff for everyone all around. Win-win.
Adding incompatible standards never aids any product in the market. If GM cars could only drive on GM designed roads, it's likely they wouldn't do well. The same is true of "refueling" standards; the CCS Combo1 is an odd duck in this game, and much like your other views that miss the mark (GM makes money on Spark EV when every other car company losses millions on their compliance Zero Emission Vehicle), you are wrong to think that a GM and German car only standard is promoting EV's.

Quite the opposite; it has generated confusion in the market place for EV consumers, but most importantly to GM, it has stalled public infrastructure in some markets while regulators / decision makers wait to see "who wins".

The reality is that the GM and German car charging standard has not grown commensurate with other charge standards. It is grossly late to the game and not actively supported by the auto manufacturers who are members.

Protocol .......... US Deployed . World Deployed . US Cars . Worldwide Cars

CCS Combo1 ........ 10 ....................10 ................. 150 ............. 150 ... (moribund)

CCS Combo2 ........ 0 ......................50 .................... 0 ............. 800 ... (moribund)

CHAdeMO ......... 600 ................ 3,800 ............. 50,000 ....... 140,000 (growing fast)

Supercharger .... 600 ................... 650 ............. 25,000 ......... 35,000 (extreme growth)
Oh, boy, I guess all those Chinese consumers are going to be even more confused when they have GB/T on their cars. Tony, perhaps you should direct your outrage against the Chinese government, as they are insisting on introducing yet another QC standard, and in the world's largest car market no less.

TonyWilliams
Posts: 572
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:23 pm

Re: My first DC Fast Charging Experience

Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:37 pm

gra wrote:Oh, boy, I guess all those Chinese consumers are going to be even more confused when they have GB/T on their cars. Tony, perhaps you should direct your outrage against the Chinese government, as they are insisting on introducing yet another QC standard, and in the world's largest car market no less.
I must be hitting close to home, eh? I'm not too concerned about any Chinese standard taking over the world, and by the same token, I'm very impressed with what they developed. It's the best of all the available designs that should work with AC or DC, high or low amperage, single or three phase, and smartly uses CAN bus control (as does every car built in the world), all in one plug.

Here, I'll make one with hydrogen for you:


Protocol .......... US Deployed . World Deployed . US Cars . Worldwide Cars

Hydrogen................20....................40....................25.................100....

CCS Combo1 ........ 10 ....................10 ................. 150 ............. 150 ... (moribund)

CCS Combo2 ........ 0 ......................50 .................... 0 ............. 800 ... (moribund)

CHAdeMO ......... 600 ................ 3,800 ............. 50,000 ....... 140,000 (growing fast)

Supercharger .... 600 ................... 650 ............. 25,000 ......... 35,000 (extreme growth)

China GB/T ...........0.......................0....................0..................0

Chameleon AC ......0.....................100..................0..................15,000
Contrary to many folks here, I do NOT own a LEAF.

gra
Posts: 249
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:52 pm
Location: Inner East S.F. Bay Area

Re: My first DC Fast Charging Experience

Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:23 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:
gra wrote:Oh, boy, I guess all those Chinese consumers are going to be even more confused when they have GB/T on their cars. Tony, perhaps you should direct your outrage against the Chinese government, as they are insisting on introducing yet another QC standard, and in the world's largest car market no less.
I must be hitting close to home, eh?
Close to home? How do you figure, since I don't own any kind of EV and thus have no direct stake in any of the standards? I've said before that I think it's too early to worry about standardization when the number of PEVs is so small, and when many of the standards will be quickly outmoded in any case.
TonyWilliams wrote: I'm not too concerned about any Chinese standard taking over the world, and by the same token, I'm very impressed with what they developed. It's the best of all the available designs that should work with AC or DC, high or low amperage, single or three phase, and smartly uses CAN bus control (as does every car built in the world), all in one plug.
Well, since we both agree that it's superior to CHAdeMO and CCS, and only Tesla is in the same ballpark technically but can't hope to be on more than a tiny fraction of the number of PEVs that will have GB/T installed, maybe it should be the world standard, assuming you feel that such is required.
TonyWilliams wrote: Here, I'll make one with hydrogen for you:


Protocol .......... US Deployed . World Deployed . US Cars . Worldwide Cars

Hydrogen................20....................40....................25.................100....

CCS Combo1 ........ 10 ....................10 ................. 150 ............. 150 ... (moribund)

CCS Combo2 ........ 0 ......................50 .................... 0 ............. 800 ... (moribund)

CHAdeMO ......... 600 ................ 3,800 ............. 50,000 ....... 140,000 (growing fast)

Supercharger .... 600 ................... 650 ............. 25,000 ......... 35,000 (extreme growth)

China GB/T ...........0.......................0....................0..................0

Chameleon AC ......0.....................100..................0..................15,000
Thanks. Let's check back in a year and see how the numbers have changed. Although I see no indication that CCS is moribund, given how quickly they're now starting to be installed in the U.S. and Europe now that cars that use them are available for sale. As of today, the U.S. numbers are 11 plus 4 known under construction (I suspect a lot more will be going in at other BMW dealers), and I have no idea how many cars are equipped to use it. With the i3 now being on sale and having sold 336 (almost all BEVs) last month, and the Spark having had it available since late December and having sold at least 551 since Jan. 1st, 150 seems low.

As for Europe, CCS-2 seem to be springing up there as well: I count 14 sites total in Germany, The Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Finland and Greece, and the four in the Netherlands all have two per site as does one in Germany.

As to the problem of multiple standards, sure it's an issue, but hardly an insoluble one, I like this listing from Plugshare, for a hotel in Germany listing all their EVSEs/chargers: EV Plug (J1772), Quick Charge, Tesla HPWC (Roadster), Tesla HPWC (Model S), EV Plug (Type 2), EV Plug (Type 3), Wall Outlet (EuroPlug), SAE Combo. And here's a location in Norway:
EV Plug (J1772), Quick Charge, EV Plug (Type 2), EV Plug (Type 3), 4 Wall Outlet (EuroPlug)s, SAE Combo.

As to H2, your listing of stations in the U.S. currently is too high as there are only 9 public ones, although several more are due to open soon. And your listing of the number of cars is too low, as there are a couple of hundred in the U.S. alone (ignoring buses and other commercial vehicles). By next year the number of both stations and cars in California will jump considerably.

TonyWilliams
Posts: 572
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:23 pm

Re: My first DC Fast Charging Experience

Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:40 pm

gra wrote:Well, since we both agree that it's superior to CHAdeMO and CCS, and only Tesla is in the same ballpark technically but can't hope to be on more than a tiny fraction of the number of PEVs that will have GB/T installed, maybe it should be the world standard, assuming you feel that such is required.
We aren't going to see a "world standard" for this in my lifetime, if ever. There's too many interests all competing, hence the CHAdeMO -v- CCS issue.

Most efficient, lowest cost, best... none of those issues will win the war. Actual chargers deployed and cars that can use and support those chargers will win.

Again, as I've mentioned eight billion times at least, having more than one competing public standard is silly. It does not gain market acceptance of EV's, and in fact hinders it.

Thanks. Let's check back in a year and see how the numbers have changed. Although I see no indication that CCS is moribund, given how quickly they're now starting to be installed in the U.S. and Europe now that cars that use them are available for sale. As of today, the U.S. numbers are 11 plus 4 known under construction (I suspect a lot more will be going in at other BMW dealers), and I have no idea how many cars are equipped to use it. With the i3 now being on sale and having sold 336 (almost all BEVs) last month, and the Spark having had it available since late December and having sold at least 551 since Jan. 1st, 150 seems low.

Absolutely, I'll keep the data updated for next year! Folks will quibble over whether 150 Spark EV's are too low, or become giddy with 336 BMW cars (not all of which will have the CCS receptacle), and completely overlook 3100 new Nissan LEAF's that just got registered on US roadways in May 2014.

Or the fact that not only are their only 10 (or 11, or 14, or 20, or whatever tiny number) of the CCS chargers in the USA, virtually ALL of them include a complementary CHAdeMO charger just a few feet away. Yes, of course GM and German car maker dealerships won't install CHAdeMO, neither will any Japanese auto maker dealerships install CCS.

As for Europe, CCS-2 seem to be springing up there as well: I count 14 sites total in Germany, The Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Finland and Greece, and the four in the Netherlands all have two per site as does one in Germany.

I gave you 50, because I was too lazy to count. Also, like China with GB/T, Germany will only publically fund the "home team" CCS Combo2 solo within their country.

As to the problem of multiple standards, sure it's an issue, but hardly an insoluble one, I like this listing from Plugshare, for a hotel in Germany listing all their EVSEs/chargers: EV Plug (J1772), Quick Charge, Tesla HPWC (Roadster), Tesla HPWC (Model S), EV Plug (Type 2), EV Plug (Type 3), Wall Outlet (EuroPlug), SAE Combo. And here's a location in Norway:
EV Plug (J1772), Quick Charge, EV Plug (Type 2), EV Plug (Type 3), 4 Wall Outlet (EuroPlug)s, SAE Combo.

Yes, that will be reality for a generation. It is neither ideal, nor the goal. How many places will actually do that, knowing 90% (or even 100%) of those will be obsolete in a decade or two?

As to H2, your listing of stations in the U.S. currently is too high as there are only 9 public ones, although several more are due to open soon. And your listing of the number of cars is too low, as there are a couple of hundred in the U.S. alone (ignoring buses and other commercial vehicles). By next year the number of both stations and cars in California will jump considerably.
Again, not really trying to get the exact number on a changing game. There are a billion cars in the world (plus or minus some really huge number) equals 0.000003% are hydrogen.

Oh, I'm confident that as long as money... lots and lots of money (preferably tax payer kind) are flowing, we will have hydrogen stations for cars. I do not see that as a successful end game, and even Toyota has stated that they don't think they will pass up battery electric cars until 2030 (as if batteries will just stay 2014 year specification until then).

I predict when the dust settles in 50-100 years, hydrogen will be the go-to source for energy storage and heavy surface and sea transport. Electric cars will be the norm with inductive charging and autopilot type autonomous driving (with lots of Big Brother and NSA watching).
Contrary to many folks here, I do NOT own a LEAF.

nozferatu
Posts: 575
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:47 pm

Re: My first DC Fast Charging Experience

Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:29 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:
Adding incompatible standards never aids any product in the market.
Neither does irrational alarmism.
If GM cars could only drive on GM designed roads, it's likely they wouldn't do well. The same is true of "refueling" standards; the CCS Combo1 is an odd duck in this game, and much like your other views that miss the mark (GM makes money on Spark EV when every other car company losses millions on their compliance Zero Emission Vehicle), you are wrong to think that a GM and German car only standard is promoting EV's.
Fortunately it's not just GM is it. Too bad for some.
Quite the opposite; it has generated confusion in the market place for EV consumers, but most importantly to GM, it has stalled public infrastructure in some markets while regulators / decision makers wait to see "who wins".
Not what is making things confusing is all this nonsensical bickering about making everything one standard when throughout history there really never has been one standard for a majority things we use.

Also, don't think for a minute that the ChaDemo makers wouldn't be blocking SAE 1772 in their own country if it became competitive and a threat. This is a silly debate filled with confusing nomenclature simply for the sake of arguing and personal hatred.

TonyWilliams
Posts: 572
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:23 pm

Re: My first DC Fast Charging Experience

Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:05 pm

nozferatu wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:
Adding incompatible standards never aids any product in the market.
Neither does irrational alarmism.

So we agree? That's awesome, since I won't have to convince you in the future that adding an addition DC charging standard (that offers no additional benefit besides being incompatible and different) is bad. Bravo!!!

The "irrational alarmism" seems counter to agreeing with me, however.

Not what is making things confusing is all this nonsensical bickering about making everything one standard when throughout history there really never has been one standard for a majority things we use.

I actually don't support "one standard". I'm against GM trying to actually stop CHAdeMO when we knew several years ago that GM had no plans to bring a mass market EV to the market. I fully support Tesla Superchargers, as they serve a very real market that neither CCS nor CHAdeMO would serve as well. Plus, I never want to pull in to a Supercharger and find a GM Petro EV with a 10kW battery and a hybrid Diesel engine blocking the spot.

My argument is similar for J1772. It's crazy to have the same plug for a 6-11 mile range Prius Plug-In that also can charge a Tesla Roadster at 60 miles per hour of charging. That was Tesla who petitioned to have J1772 increased to 80 amps, while the rest of the world still recognizes 30 amps max.

Also, don't think for a minute that the ChaDemo makers wouldn't be blocking SAE 1772 in their own country if it became competitive and a threat. This is a silly debate filled with confusing nomenclature simply for the sake of arguing and personal hatred.

I'm sorry that you're confused. CCS, GT/B, Chameleon, and Supercharger are "effectively" blocked in Japan by the simple fact that there are THOUSANDS of CHAdeMO chargers throughout the country, and both the auto makers and government ACTIVELY support them (with real money, not press releases). Expect that system to grow even faster than it has been, around the world. Even Tesla will not likely have many Superchargers in Japan when just a CHAdeMO adaptor can charge the car anywhere.

Now that CHAdeMO can build solo charger stations in Europe without restriction until late 2017 (and they can stay forever), just watch what happens there! The USA, I expect accelerated growth of CHAdeMO when Nissan alone is pumping out 3000 cars per month to add to the over 50,000 on US roads.

I'll bet CCS cars don't sell 3000 total this year (all of them combined). So, nothing to do but watch and let people know the facts so that they can make informed decisions about their EV purchase.
Contrary to many folks here, I do NOT own a LEAF.

Chaconzies
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri May 09, 2014 6:22 pm

Re: My first DC Fast Charging Experience

Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:35 pm

Although I wish the Spark had a Chademo port, I'm okay with SAE combo as long as eVgo does there part. This way I'll always be confident that I can use the SAE quick chargers seeing as how there's hardly any sparks out there! No line waiting :lol:

TonyWilliams
Posts: 572
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:23 pm

Re: My first DC Fast Charging Experience

Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:20 pm

Chaconzies wrote:Although I wish the Spark had a Chademo port, I'm okay with SAE combo as long as eVgo does there part. This way I'll always be confident that I can use the SAE quick chargers seeing as how there's hardly any sparks out there! No line waiting :lol:
That is absolutely correct !!! Which is why I may offer an SAE to CHAdeMO adaptor in the coming years.... the CHAdeMO stations will have a line (they already do) while the government required CCS station is sitting there doing not much.

I want to fill those 200 CCS stations in California (over 4 years) with 100,000 LEAF's and other CHAdeMO mass market cars.

By the way, the CHAdeMO station in San Juan Capistrano is already the busiest in the country with almost 2500 paid charge events!!! The first dual CHAdeMO installation in the country will go live in Irvine in just a few weeks, and we will celebrate that at the World's Largest Electric Vehicle Gathering on August 9, 2014, which will also be the beginning of the BC2BC-2014 www.AllElectricVehicleRally.org, 1500 miles from Mexico to Canada.

1000 cars from all over Southern California in one spot. You can be part of history.
Contrary to many folks here, I do NOT own a LEAF.

gra
Posts: 249
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:52 pm
Location: Inner East S.F. Bay Area

Re: My first DC Fast Charging Experience

Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:20 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:
gra wrote:Well, since we both agree that it's superior to CHAdeMO and CCS, and only Tesla is in the same ballpark technically but can't hope to be on more than a tiny fraction of the number of PEVs that will have GB/T installed, maybe it should be the world standard, assuming you feel that such is required.
We aren't going to see a "world standard" for this in my lifetime, if ever. There's too many interests all competing, hence the CHAdeMO -v- CCS issue.

Most efficient, lowest cost, best... none of those issues will win the war. Actual chargers deployed and cars that can use and support those chargers will win.
Agreed. So why all the bitching and moaning about different standards, when you know that it's not going to change anything?
TonyWilliams wrote: Again, as I've mentioned eight billion times at least, having more than one competing public standard is silly. It does not gain market acceptance of EV's, and in fact hinders it.
In the U.S. I'd say it's had just the opposite effect. Nissan was doing almost nothing to support CHAdeMO here, until Tesla started embarrassing them with the SC rollout and the threat of competition from CCS got them off their (judging by how slowly they move, rather wide) butts. So, while having a single standard from the get go may be the ideal in a fairy tale world, the reality seems to have worked out rather differently.
TonyWilliams wrote:
gra wrote:Thanks. Let's check back in a year and see how the numbers have changed. Although I see no indication that CCS is moribund, given how quickly they're now starting to be installed in the U.S. and Europe now that cars that use them are available for sale. As of today, the U.S. numbers are 11 plus 4 known under construction (I suspect a lot more will be going in at other BMW dealers), and I have no idea how many cars are equipped to use it. With the i3 now being on sale and having sold 336 (almost all BEVs) last month, and the Spark having had it available since late December and having sold at least 551 since Jan. 1st, 150 seems low.
Absolutely, I'll keep the data updated for next year! Folks will quibble over whether 150 Spark EV's are too low, or become giddy with 336 BMW cars (not all of which will have the CCS receptacle), and completely overlook 3100 new Nissan LEAF's that just got registered on US roadways in May 2014.

Or the fact that not only are their only 10 (or 11, or 14, or 20, or whatever tiny number) of the CCS chargers in the USA, virtually ALL of them include a complementary CHAdeMO charger just a few feet away. Yes, of course GM and German car maker dealerships won't install CHAdeMO, neither will any Japanese auto maker dealerships install CCS.
Uh huh. They'll all go their own way, and we'll see an ever growing number of them all until, some time in a decade or so, one or maybe two per country or continent win out. I can wait.
TonyWilliams wrote:
gra wrote:As for Europe, CCS-2 seem to be springing up there as well: I count 14 sites total in Germany, The Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Finland and Greece, and the four in the Netherlands all have two per site as does one in Germany.
I gave you 50, because I was too lazy to count. Also, like China with GB/T, Germany will only publically fund the "home team" CCS Combo2 solo within their country.
Yup, those terrible Germans and Chinese. Of course, if even 1% of Chinese car sales are BEVs that's still 200,000 cars/year, so GB/T will quickly become the largest QC standard by far. As you wrote above, "Most efficient, lowest cost, best... none of those issues will win the war. Actual chargers deployed and cars that can use and support those chargers will win."
TonyWilliams wrote:
gra wrote:As to the problem of multiple standards, sure it's an issue, but hardly an insoluble one, I like this listing from Plugshare, for a hotel in Germany listing all their EVSEs/chargers: EV Plug (J1772), Quick Charge, Tesla HPWC (Roadster), Tesla HPWC (Model S), EV Plug (Type 2), EV Plug (Type 3), Wall Outlet (EuroPlug), SAE Combo. And here's a location in Norway:

EV Plug (J1772), Quick Charge, EV Plug (Type 2), EV Plug (Type 3), 4 Wall Outlet (EuroPlug)s, SAE Combo.
Yes, that will be reality for a generation. It is neither ideal, nor the goal. How many places will actually do that, knowing 90% (or even 100%) of those will be obsolete in a decade or two?
Of course it's not ideal, but since no one seems inclined to appoint either of us world dictator, as you say it's reality. As to how many places will provide multiple charging standards, as many as think it's worth it to their business, of course.
TonyWilliams wrote:
gra wrote:As to H2, your listing of stations in the U.S. currently is too high as there are only 9 public ones, although several more are due to open soon. And your listing of the number of cars is too low, as there are a couple of hundred in the U.S. alone (ignoring buses and other commercial vehicles). By next year the number of both stations and cars in California will jump considerably.
Again, not really trying to get the exact number on a changing game. There are a billion cars in the world (plus or minus some really huge number) equals 0.000003% are hydrogen.

Oh, I'm confident that as long as money... lots and lots of money (preferably tax payer kind) are flowing, we will have hydrogen stations for cars. I do not see that as a successful end game, and even Toyota has stated that they don't think they will pass up battery electric cars until 2030 (as if batteries will just stay 2014 year specification until then).

I predict when the dust settles in 50-100 years, hydrogen will be the go-to source for energy storage and heavy surface and sea transport. Electric cars will be the norm with inductive charging and autopilot type autonomous driving (with lots of Big Brother and NSA watching).
Well, we do agree on the inductive charging for BEVs and autonomous cars. As to H2, I'm not going to make any predictions as to the ultimate winner between it and batteries, as that's totally dependent on how much and how fast each develops and numerous extraneous factors, beyond any ability of mine to predict beyond guesswork.

Return to “General / Main Owners Forum”