Losing Miles Sitting in the Garage After Full Charge

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AllSpark

Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
7
I have owned my Spark EV for about 4 months now and everything has been great up until a couple weeks ago. Now, when I fully charge the vehicle, I unplug the charger and leave the car in the garage. At some point (sometimes almost immediately), a semi-loud fan then kicks on, and I will lose somewhere between 10-20 miles by the next morning.

The fan noise makes it seem as if the car is on. I also notice the panel behind the steering wheel is back-lit, but not displaying any information.

I have tried opening and shutting the driver's side door, locking and unlocking the car, turning the car on and off, and plugging the car back in. I live in Southern California where it has been hot recently, but we ventilate the garage from time to time to cool everything off.

Any ideas about what's going on?
 
Is there a reason to unplug the car? If you leave it plugged in, the battery cooling is supported by the plug connection, and reconditioning will take place.
 
That sounds unusual.
Press the 'Leaf' button and see what it reports for energy usage. You'll probably see a lot of 'battery conditioning' , or whatever it's called.
It is the TMS, Thermal Management System running to keep the battery at a good temp.
It's supposed to do this when plugged in automatically and NOT do it when unplugged.

Your car has a problem.
You need to document what you are seeing and take it in.
Maybe you could call GM's EV tech team, or whatever they are called now, (used to be "Volt Advisor" when I had a Volt).
Call before taking it in.

Good Luck and let us know how it goes.
 
You are probably losing part of your range due to current draw to get battery temp down after charge. The other part of the range loss is due to lack of battery conditioning because you don't have it plugged in.

Bottom line - leave it plugged in - especially in warm temps. it will draw some current for battery conditioning - but you will "win" in the long run.

Even without the fan running - which may or may not be an issue - you should leave the car plugged in to condition the battery and allow for best range.

If you leave the car plugged in then, ideally, you will have battery at a more ideal temperature when you leave house in the morning. This will increase your range. This is recommendation per the manual.

I have noticed that the phone app will say it is "full" but still charging - manual also states that you should let charge cycle fully complete. Maybe you disconnected early?

A key piece of information missing here is your temperature. If you let the floor of a garage heat up to a high temp - it will take a long time for that garage floor and the garage to cool down. And cooling down a battery pack that weighs over 600 pounds takes a bit of time too...

jeff
 
oregonsparky said:
... Maybe you disconnected early?...
Still, when disconnected and parked nothing should be running and drawing down the power.
What if I want to leave my car at the airport during vacation? I don't want to return to a car with a depleted battery.

That car is doing something wrong.
 
For the almost year and half that I've owned my Spark EV, 2014 model, I've NEVER ever seen the battery conditioning percentage go up above 0%. Ever.

I think there is a change in how the software manages the battery system on the 2015s. Perhaps due to the change in battery manufacturer and chemistry.

I also know a few 2015 models have had software issues in and of themselves.
 
I have a 2015 and have seen battery conditioning on power summary display. I have only had the car two weeks... It was 100 degrees a couple of days ago here in portland and I was parked in a large blacktop parking lot it was much warmer than that... Temp read 108 and the car sat for a while - I remote started the car. Battery conditioning can and will happen - and I have seen it when remote starting on a very hot day...

In typing this - I realize that the symptoms that he is seeing are the same as when I do a remote start on my car... Display on but blank, fan kicks up to high level, climate control kicks on etc. etc. To confirm this - he could get in the vehicle to see if the AC is running to cool the car after the disconnect and fan running high, etc. Also tail lights are on, etc. during remote start. If this is the case, then yep it's a 'bug' in the software or an electrical "glitch" and I suppose he'd have to hop in the car and cycle the car on and off to truly "turn it off". Remote start "should" cease if 20 minutes elapses without user turning vehicle "on".

I would also be curious as to what the energy summary was in the morning for this car. Does it show climate control taking power? Does it show battery conditioning?

jeff
 
Is it possible you left the car ON by mistake? I sometimes do that after driving my Tesla where I don't have to turn it on/off...
 
nikwax said:
Is there a reason to unplug the car?

I typically unplug it at night if it's fully charged. I thought that once the vehicle was fully charged there was no reason to leave it plugged in.
 
NORTON said:
That sounds unusual.
Press the 'Leaf' button and see what it reports for energy usage. You'll probably see a lot of 'battery conditioning' , or whatever it's called.
It is the TMS, Thermal Management System running to keep the battery at a good temp.
It's supposed to do this when plugged in automatically and NOT do it when unplugged.

Your car has a problem.
You need to document what you are seeing and take it in.
Maybe you could call GM's EV tech team, or whatever they are called now, (used to be "Volt Advisor" when I had a Volt).
Call before taking it in.

Good Luck and let us know how it goes.

Thank you. Yes, I noticed a 5% battery conditioning value on the energy usage report on the card. We've called the service department for an appointment, but will also find out if there's a tech team contact we can call as well.
 
AllSpark said:
nikwax said:
Is there a reason to unplug the car?

I typically unplug it at night if it's fully charged. I thought that once the vehicle was fully charged there was no reason to leave it plugged in.

Nope. Our Car has a very nice thermal management system for the battery - both charger and battery are liquid cooled - and as nikwax said this cooling/heating can happen if you have it plugged in... heat reduces range - cold reduces range.... Having it at right temp gives improved range and battery life...

From owners manual :

"Charging :
Keep the vehicle plugged in, even
when fully charged, to keep the
battery temperature ready for the
next drive. This is important when
outside temperatures are extremely
hot or cold."

and...

"It is recommended that
the vehicle be plugged in when
temperatures are below 0°C (32°F)
and above 32°C (90°F) to maximize
high voltage battery life."

------

Charging heats the battery - so battery cooling will be happening during (and after charging) - fans, pumps running etc.. Battery might hit "full" but charge cycle might still need to complete - a complete charge cycle will be bringing battery to full and bringing battery back down to an optimal temp (aka "battery conditioning").


Jeff
 
I routinely park my 2015 Spark outside in hot weather during the day. To my knowledge, my car does not use any Battery Conditioning energy, as indicated by a percentage change on the display, during the temperate drive in the morning, or when stored during the day. I routinely drive home when the outside temps are above 100F and the car has been stored at above 90F for most of the day. It seems to only use Battery Conditioning energy after I start the car to drive home. Then it clearly uses 1-2% to cool the battery within the first 5-10 minutes. I typically get back having used 2-3%. My return commute is 30 miles, uphill, at highway speeds. On the hotter days and when driving faster or into the wind (especially high battery usage conditions) the Battery Conditioning will creep up another percentage point or two. I've never seen more than 5% usage for Battery Conditioning.

As an aside, I have to add that this topic and the ensuing discussion is a great example of what is wrong with the EV-side of the auto industry. The manufacturer has tried, but clearly unsuccessfully in this case, to explain how the vehicle works and what to expect. I agree that this car seems to have some issue, but some of the comments are based on quite wide expectations about how the vehicle works. What happens when a charged vehicle is unplugged should be a clearly defined expectation. This investigative process, to understand how one vehicle is operating, would be smoother if GM (and other OEMs) would provide better real-time information about what the car is doing and more generally how the vehicle works. No negativity implied to any of the posters. Off my soapbox now; this is best left to another conversation or thread.
 
oregonsparky said:
...Charging heats the battery - so battery cooling will be happening during (and after charging) - fans, pumps running etc..

Yes, the TMS can still be using some grid/EVSE power after the battery is topped.
But NOT if the car is unplugged.
TMS does NOT consume battery power to do it's job, IF the car is OFF and the UNPLUGGED, correct?

That is what the OP is seeing and his car is not operating correctly, correct?
 
NORTON said:
That is what the OP is seeing and his car is not operating correctly, correct?

Correct. :)

My service appointment is this morning. I will definitely report back with what they find.
 
NORTON said:
oregonsparky said:
...Charging heats the battery - so battery cooling will be happening during (and after charging) - fans, pumps running etc..

Yes, the TMS can still be using some grid/EVSE power after the battery is topped.
But NOT if the car is unplugged.
TMS does NOT consume battery power to do it's job, IF the car is OFF and the UNPLUGGED, correct?

That is what the OP is seeing and his car is not operating correctly, correct?

You don't know that for sure... There are usually no absolutes in this world....

Sorry - but I am looking at this as an (electrical) engineer and just considering all the possibilities. I am not saying anything is one way or another...

Jeff
 
Do the charging modes - immediate, Depart Time or Rate and Depart Time affect the TMS operation when the car is plugged in? I currently use Depart Time so the car will charge during off-peak hours. Charging is scheduled to start at 11 pm but, like today, the car may be plugged in at 3 pm and the green dash light is blinking.
 
NORTON said:
oregonsparky said:
...Charging heats the battery - so battery cooling will be happening during (and after charging) - fans, pumps running etc..

Yes, the TMS can still be using some grid/EVSE power after the battery is topped.
But NOT if the car is unplugged.
TMS does NOT consume battery power to do it's job, IF the car is OFF and the UNPLUGGED, correct?

That is what the OP is seeing and his car is not operating correctly, correct?

The Spark cannot activate the TMS without the main contractor engaged and that is never engaged unless the ignition is on or the car is being charged.

The Tesla model S can run the TMS off the battery when the SOC is >90% and the temperature is high and the car is parked but it is the only EV I know of that does.

kevin
 
Something is not right. Reminds me of the problem I had with my Fusion Energi. I had a short in a wire bundle near the trunk which would cause the fans (which normally cool the battery when charging) to run when the car was off. It would such the life out of my 12 volt battery.
 
I realize this is an older thread, but I have a similar question - perhaps by now others from this post have learned more about the Battery TMS behavior and can help me out.

I have a 2016 Spark EV 2LT with QC. Have had it about a month & have questions regarding Battery TMS.
I live in Phoenix, and its June now, temps are 100 deg + a day, average around 105deg.

I agree with Zoomit, that there should be clear and specific details on how the car operates and what its programed to do when plugged in so I know what to expect, charging, unplugged, etc... Simply recommending to leave it plugged in if temps are +/- certain ranges is vague as to what you can expect to happen or what the parasitic power usage will be.

My situations is this:
I have an on/off Peak power plan. Off peak is overnight from 7pm & 12 noon next day - cheapest power & no demand charge. Between 12 noon - 7pm power is more expensive PLUS there is a demand charge for appliances that use significant amperages - ie: Dryer, AC, Stove, EVSE.

I have the Bosch 40a EVSE (obviously the Spark can only charge at a max rate of 3.3kw - (I have other EV's that charge at 6.6kw & higher). I charge the car in the morning & its charged 100% complete before 12 noon. But during the afternoon between 12-7 when it gets hot in the garage I will see the EVSE blinking (indicating charging in progress) and fans are on in the Spark. Obviously thats the TMS maintaining the battery temp. The Bosch or Clipper Creek EVSE's I have don't indicate the specific power consumption, they just indicate charging or not.

My question is:
What is the power draw for the battery TMS system when the car is fully charged and the TMS turns on to maintain/condition the battery to the proper temp range?

If it draws a significant amount of 240 power, it could increase my On Peak Demand and raise my ele bill considerably. Side note - my EV only ele cost for a month is averaging $12-15 for both cars with total @ 1,400 miles monthly always charging Off Peak. I accidentally plugged in the Leaf on a Fri afternoon one time and charged the car at 6.6kw. That one 2 hour charge in the afternoon increased my On Peak Demand significantly & cost an additional $50!

Anyway, I called the Chevy EV Team/Specialists to ask what the Battery TMS power draw was when the car was fully charged.
I had to explain it several times as they kept trying to tell me that the battery must be charged when depleted - this is not a battery charging question.
Several times they called me back after conversing with the "EV Engineers" . Each time saying that it was variable depending on the outside temp, that it PROBABLY used ABOUT the same power as a toaster, that the battery likes to be kept at 75 deg. etc... no real answer yet.

I rephrased my question, asking about a specific temp and what is the MAX power the Battery TMS will use if the ambient air temp is 120 deg. Their answer was that the max power usage at 120v is 12amps, and at 240v is 20a. Thats the on board charger limits, not what the Battery TMS will use. I highly doubt the Battery TMS will drat 20a at 240v even with the AC compressor on.

So, I guess I will find out on my next ele bill how much power the Battery TMS is using based on my On Peak Demand.

Its unacceptable that I can not get an answer to my question, or even speak directly with the "EV Engineer", as I am forced to ask questions and get answers via a CS rep that has no idea what I'm trying to ask. The Engineers that designed and built the Spark EV should know the parameters & various power consumption rates for all the different systems on car... its not like the car built itself and know one knows how it works - frustrating!
 
BooKitty said:
Its unacceptable that I can not get an answer to my question, or even speak directly with the "EV Engineer", as I am forced to ask questions and get answers via a CS rep that has no idea what I'm trying to ask. The Engineers that designed and built the Spark EV should know the parameters & various power consumption rates for all the different systems on car... its not like the car built itself and know one knows how it works - frustrating!
I understand your frustration. Another forum member was able to track the TMS power draw using a 'Kill a Watt' while plugged into 120V.
He saw 640 watts continuous after charge complete. I repeated his test in same ambient temps and saw no power usage after charge complete, even over night. His car obviously has a problem and he took it to a dealer and we're waiting to hear back from him.

One thing you can do is install your own 240V kWh meter and answer the question yourself. You can find them used on ebay. I built this one into my L2 EVSE: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00YY1KOHA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
This unit could be built into a box between your L2 and the power outlet.

I also understand that Chevy can't give you a actual number because of changing outside temps, is the car in the sun, what color is the car, etc.
You are probably the worst case scenario for this question. It is HOT in Phoenix.
People in Phoenix walk around like they are half dead.
People in Tucson walk around like they ARE dead. :lol:
 
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