MrDRMorgan
Posts: 914
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:27 am
Location: Manteca, California

Re: Battery degredation

Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:50 am

espresso wrote:Thx guys,

This is exactly the same data in the CVS file...
I'll do more reading testing when I get my new to me Spark 2015 delivered later this week.
I tried to get as much data from battery as I could before negotiating oevr last weekend.
At least I got Cells Voltage and Avg Cells Voltage readout which was 4.1V all around so from my understanding the bat is healthy will see about it's capacity later.
The dash was showing 110+ km (70+ Miles) both times I test drive it.
I think you will really like the 2015 Spark EV or the 2014 or the 2016. I haven't had this much fun driving a little car since I purchased a 1966 VW Bug in 1966 and the Spark EV runs circles around the VW.

TheLondonBroiler
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:25 am

Re: Battery degredation

Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:17 pm

Just an update, I may have previously mentioned, using torque and the energy usage screen, my battery capacity has steadily gone down (only having gone up slightly on one occasion after a DEEP discharge and recharge), in the 10 months I've owned my Spark. It's logical to assume that frequent fast charging, LOTS of hard launching, and daily charging to 100%, have put greater strain on the battery than if the opposite were the case.

For the last month and a half, my primary means of charging the Spark has been dcfc ( due to personal circumstances that are... well... undesirable. I'll leave it at that). I've had what I would consider as a substantial drop in battery capacity (0.8kwh).

Image
Image
2015 Spark EV w/ DCFC 46,XXX miles
Purchased 1/20/18 w/ 16,5XX miles
2019 Bolt EV w/ DCFC 6,XXX miles
Purchased 3/16/19 w/ 87 miles

fizzit
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:50 pm

Re: Battery degredation

Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:04 pm

I recently bought a 2015 with DCFC and 40k miles. The GOM range looked good when I bought it and the car was in good shape so I assumed the battery had to have a decent amount of life left. However the GOM range dropped quite a bit as soon as I started driving, and I recently downloaded the PIDs for Torque Pro to find that I have 14.4kWh capacity. Pretty disappointing, I'm guessing the previous owner must have used fast charging most of the time.

TheGriffinSpark
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:29 pm
Location: Suffolk, VA

Re: Battery degredation

Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:02 am

Wow...! I just posted a question about how accurate the capacity gauge is on Torque Pro, so this is news coming at a pretty crucial time for me. Now the question is, do I send the car back or tolerate the reduced capacity? Does anyone know what point GM will warranty a degraded battery (if at all)?

MrDRMorgan
Posts: 914
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:27 am
Location: Manteca, California

Re: Battery degredation

Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:18 am

TheGriffinSpark wrote:Wow...! I just posted a question about how accurate the capacity gauge is on Torque Pro, so this is news coming at a pretty crucial time for me. Now the question is, do I send the car back or tolerate the reduced capacity? Does anyone know what point GM will warranty a degraded battery (if at all)?
The warranty on the HV battery is for 8 years / 100K miles and must have degraded by more than 35%.

My observations from postings on this forum as well as my own experiences is that the HV battery in the 2015 Spark EV appeared to be degrading more quickly than I expected. My leased 2015 Spark EV, along with that of a friend of mine who also had a leased 2015 Spark EV, showed the HV battery in the 2015 Spark EV degraded to around 15 kWh at about 30K miles on the ODO. Using Torque Pro and an OBDLink MX Bluetooth adapter, I measured the battery capacity in my friends 2015 Spark EV to be 14.8 kWh. My 2015 measured 15.2 kWh.

I currently have a 2014 Spark EV and a 2016 Spark EV and both have around 15k miles on the ODO. Since I started using TorquePro in June of 2018, my 2014 HV battery has degraded 0.5 kWh over the last 2000 miles [current capacity is 16.7 kWh] and my 2016 Spark EV HV battery has degraded by 0.3 kWh over tha last 4000 miles [current capacity is 16.4 kWh]. Some of this may be due to the drop in ambient temperature as winter approaches.

My 2014 Spark EV does not have the quick-charge option but my 2016 Spark EV does and I use DCFC when I not driving locally.

MrDRMorgan
Posts: 914
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:27 am
Location: Manteca, California

Re: Battery degredation

Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:34 am

fizzit wrote:I recently bought a 2015 with DCFC and 40k miles. The GOM range looked good when I bought it and the car was in good shape so I assumed the battery had to have a decent amount of life left. However the GOM range dropped quite a bit as soon as I started driving, and I recently downloaded the PIDs for Torque Pro to find that I have 14.4kWh capacity. Pretty disappointing, I'm guessing the previous owner must have used fast charging most of the time.
Many driving variables affect the calculated GOM value displayed on the dash display. My rule of thumb is to estimate my GOM range by multiplying the measured battery capacity by 5 mi / kWh. In your case it is 14.4 x 5 = 72 miles. This would be a rough estimate for driving at 65 mph. Use of the heater or AC can and will drop your GOM significantly depending on how you set your cabin temperature.

Comparing the TorquePro data between my 2014 Spark EV w/o DCFC and my 2016 Spark EV with DCFC shows little difference in the HV battery degradation rate and, when I am not driving locally or need to quickly charge for a local trip, I charge my 2016 Spark EV using DCFC.

TheLondonBroiler
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:25 am

Re: Battery degredation

Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:47 am

TheGriffinSpark wrote:do I send the car back or tolerate the reduced capacity?
I would have still bought the Spark knowing this, I love the car. If it were my only vehicle, for my particular situation (62 mile round trip commute, rural area), I would have looked at a PHEV (or more likely a BMW i3 REX). The Sparks power, efficiency, and price availability, is really unmatched.

I reiterate, I have to charge to 100% everyday when using 110/220v charging or I'm using fast charging, in order to do my commute. Additionally, I often do more than a dozen hard launches (+100kw on the gauge cluster) a day. I bought the Spark exactly 10 months ago today, and have put 19,850 miles on it (36,300 on the odo), almost 2,000 miles a month. The car would likely be significantly happier with an owner doing the opposite (while treating the car within the guidelines of the warranty, I'm pretty sure I'm a worst case scenario owner).

*IF* battery degradation keeps the same pace, the battery could be replaced under warranty in around 2 more years of my use. No-one REALLY knows what will happen, so I'm happy to drive it and find out.

I hope this has given some food for thought. The Spark, knowingly or unknowingly, makes an excellent ecological and economical choice, as a primary or secondary vehicle for many drivers, including myself.
2015 Spark EV w/ DCFC 46,XXX miles
Purchased 1/20/18 w/ 16,5XX miles
2019 Bolt EV w/ DCFC 6,XXX miles
Purchased 3/16/19 w/ 87 miles

MrDRMorgan
Posts: 914
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:27 am
Location: Manteca, California

Re: Battery degredation

Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:32 am

TheLondonBroiler wrote:
TheGriffinSpark wrote:do I send the car back or tolerate the reduced capacity?
I would have still bought the Spark knowing this, I love the car. If it were my only vehicle, for my particular situation (62 mile round trip commute, rural area), I would have looked at a PHEV (or more likely a BMW i3 REX). The Sparks power, efficiency, and price availability, is really unmatched.

I reiterate, I have to charge to 100% everyday when using 110/220v charging or I'm using fast charging, in order to do my commute. Additionally, I often do more than a dozen hard launches (+100kw on the gauge cluster) a day. I bought the Spark exactly 10 months ago today, and have put 19,850 miles on it (36,300 on the odo), almost 2,000 miles a month. The car would likely be significantly happier with an owner doing the opposite (while treating the car within the guidelines of the warranty, I'm pretty sure I'm a worst case scenario owner).

*IF* battery degradation keeps the same pace, the battery could be replaced under warranty in around 2 more years of my use. No-one REALLY knows what will happen, so I'm happy to drive it and find out.

I hope this has given some food for thought. The Spark, knowingly or unknowingly, makes an excellent ecological and economical choice, as a primary or secondary vehicle for many drivers, including myself.
Nice to know that Sparky can really get up and go! Driving the car the way you do, do you have any estimate of your current HV battery capacity at 36,300 miles? I am interested to know how much, if any, "hard driving" and "hard launches" affect the HV battery capacity. You Energy Information screen could give a calculated rough estimate if you reset the screen after a full charge and then record the readings just prior to re-charging.

TheLondonBroiler
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:25 am

Re: Battery degredation

Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:18 am

MrDRMorgan wrote: Nice to know that Sparky can really get up and go!
Disclaimer: I'm a bit of a hearty asshole that loves acceleration and leaving people dumbfounded. Launching is a guilty, but reasonably safe pleasure. You won't ever catch me weaving in and out of traffic and hardly ever do I ever exceed speed limits, except to maintain flow of traffic. Driving is an inherently unsafe task, everyone is responsible for their own actions.

MrDRMorgan wrote: I am interested to know how much, if any, "hard driving" and "hard launches" affect the HV battery capacity.
I believe a look into Tesla Ludicrous Mode, and the surrounding available information gives some strong hints. From an article on Electrek https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 9548122240

"...Before this limitation my car would pull around 1600 amps from the battery and 512 KW of power when fully charged, now the car will only pull around 1500 amps and 480 KW of power, a loss of about 40 HP on a 4 month old car.”

So a Tesla set up to do Ludicrous Mode with a 100kwh pack could draw 512kw (whether that's system total or specifically power to the motors, we don't know). A Spark with a 19kwh pack (less than 1/5 the capacity of a Tesla 100kw pack) is able to put 105kw to the motor (120kw system total). Make that to scale, and the Spark is able to EXCEED ludicrous mode, (600kwh+ system total or 525kw+ to the motor(s)) with no throttling/disabling over time that I'm aware of. What does that equal? I'm pretty sure (but not 100%), that it's more wear on the battery. I know this logic may be incorrect, but I'm convinced enough to post it as a hypothesis.

I'm down some more.
Image
2015 Spark EV w/ DCFC 46,XXX miles
Purchased 1/20/18 w/ 16,5XX miles
2019 Bolt EV w/ DCFC 6,XXX miles
Purchased 3/16/19 w/ 87 miles

fizzit
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:50 pm

Re: Battery degredation

Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:51 pm

MrDRMorgan wrote:
fizzit wrote:I recently bought a 2015 with DCFC and 40k miles. The GOM range looked good when I bought it and the car was in good shape so I assumed the battery had to have a decent amount of life left. However the GOM range dropped quite a bit as soon as I started driving, and I recently downloaded the PIDs for Torque Pro to find that I have 14.4kWh capacity. Pretty disappointing, I'm guessing the previous owner must have used fast charging most of the time.
Many driving variables affect the calculated GOM value displayed on the dash display. My rule of thumb is to estimate my GOM range by multiplying the measured battery capacity by 5 mi / kWh. In your case it is 14.4 x 5 = 72 miles. This would be a rough estimate for driving at 65 mph. Use of the heater or AC can and will drop your GOM significantly depending on how you set your cabin temperature.

Comparing the TorquePro data between my 2014 Spark EV w/o DCFC and my 2016 Spark EV with DCFC shows little difference in the HV battery degradation rate and, when I am not driving locally or need to quickly charge for a local trip, I charge my 2016 Spark EV using DCFC.
Do you really average 5 mi/kWh at 65mph? I haven't seen less than 16kW on flat roads at 65mph, putting my freeway max efficiency at around 4 mi/kWh. Are you on stock tires? I have some really crappy tires that the dealership put on but I'm running them at 37psi and I wouldn't think that tires alone would make a 25% difference.

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