NORTON
Posts: 1349
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 5:52 am
Location: KC,MO

Re: Battery Degradation vs Battery Limited Warranty

Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:26 pm

TheLondonBroiler wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:37 pm
Agree with Norton, wouldn't waste my time at the dealer. ...
And I agree that the dealer only has a vague relationship to the Mother Ship.
They can't pull strings and make things happen.
They may have a more direct line to Tech Support, but when it comes to this issue,, I don't know how much the dealer can help, or cares to try to help.
'14 Spark EV 2LT w/ DCFC. 85k miles.
'17 Bolt Premier w/ It All! 53k miles.
GM needs Modern Troubleshooting tools for Modern EV's.
3 step Trouble Tree, 1st try, nope, 2nd try / cost $800. 3rd try fixed it.

MrDRMorgan
Posts: 1151
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:27 am
Location: Manteca in Central California

Re: Battery Degradation vs Battery Limited Warranty

Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:01 pm

zzzzzzzz wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:01 am
NORTON wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:52 am
Sounds like a lot of bother and $150 for 'documented'.
Why not wait for warmer weather and see how your numbers look then?
You have the 8yr - 100k mile period to dik with this... ;)
I took an average of my readings per year between 2018 and 2020 and did a line prediction for 2021-2024, and at 2024 I could expect to be at 8.09 usable capacity for 36.03 miles when the warranty should be 11.04 kWh for a range of 49.2 miles (40% of 18.2kWh). I'm going to show this summary and my detailed log to the dealership, and "express" my unhappiness and major concern of the range of the vehicle thus far as well as what may happen in the next few years.

Desc - 2016 - 2018 - 2019 - 2020 - 2021 - 2022 - 2023 - 2024
kWh - 18.4 - 16.98 - 15.71 - 13.99 - 12.57 - 11.08 - 9.58 - 8.09
Miles - 82 - 75.67 - 70.01 - 62.35 - 56.02 - 49.36 - 42.69 - 36.03

We own both a Spark and Volt, so hopefully they see that I'm a diligent Chevrolet vehicle owner and be willing to help.
Here is the battery degradation I have experienced so far for my two Spark EVs:

2014: @ 14k miles - 17.2 kWh. TorquePro trendline data (125 data points) shows I can expect 12.4 kWh at 34k miles. Current ODO mileage is 25,960 miles
2016: @ 10k miles - 16.6 kWh. TorquePro trendline data (135 data points) shows I can expect 11.0 kWh at 60k miles. Current ODO mileage is 33,102 miles.

zzzzzzzz
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:03 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Battery Degradation vs Battery Limited Warranty

Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:02 pm

NORTON wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:26 pm
TheLondonBroiler wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:37 pm
Agree with Norton, wouldn't waste my time at the dealer. ...
And I agree that the dealer only has a vague relationship to the Mother Ship.
They can't pull strings and make things happen.
They may have a more direct line to Tech Support, but when it comes to this issue,, I don't know how much the dealer can help, or cares to try to help.
Ak...I'm not getting any warm and fuzzies now on GM/Chevrolet. I think this weekend I'm going to go check out a new 2020 Leaf S Plus. With 225 miles range and a heat pump for the cabin heat, is this the way to go? There's still a $7500 federal credit available on them, so after that, the Leaf can be purchased for about 20k before any trade ins....

NORTON
Posts: 1349
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 5:52 am
Location: KC,MO

Re: Battery Degradation vs Battery Limited Warranty

Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:15 pm

zzzzzzzz wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:02 pm
.....I think this weekend I'm going to go check out a new 2020 Leaf S Plus. .... the Leaf can be purchased for about 20k before any trade ins....
Nice price.
Do you know if this model Leaf has an active Thermal Management System?

Most didn't have TMS for cooling the pack and if you lived in Tucson you could get to the warranty degradation point and you would get a warranty pack replacement. They were good about it! ,, (I read on the internet....)

Will you then be a 2 EV household !
The Spark may serve you well for years to come.
'14 Spark EV 2LT w/ DCFC. 85k miles.
'17 Bolt Premier w/ It All! 53k miles.
GM needs Modern Troubleshooting tools for Modern EV's.
3 step Trouble Tree, 1st try, nope, 2nd try / cost $800. 3rd try fixed it.

SparkE
Posts: 435
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:18 am
Location: SF Bay Area (San Jose, CA)

Re: Battery Degradation vs Battery Limited Warranty

Fri Jan 01, 2021 3:32 pm

NORTON wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:15 pm
zzzzzzzz wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:02 pm
.....I think this weekend I'm going to go check out a new 2020 Leaf S Plus. .... the Leaf can be purchased for about 20k before any trade ins....
Nice price.
Do you know if this model Leaf has an active Thermal Management System?

Most didn't have TMS for cooling the pack and if you lived in Tucson you could get to the warranty degradation point and you would get a warranty pack replacement. They were good about it! ,, (I read on the internet....)
Concerning the current Nissan LEAF's TMS (Thermal Mgmt System) ...

The 2020 LEAF has HEATING for the battery pack, and *passive* *air* cooling (for both battery pack sizes, 40 kWh and 60 kWh). Not the best choice for someone living in AZ. For someone in Portland, OR, or Seattle, WA ... maybe not so much of an issue. I do know that the "rapid throttling" (quickly dropping down the fast charge rate) when the pack is hot is done or purpose to try to protect the battery from overheating. But air cooling means if it is 110 degrees outside, you aren't going to get a "fast charge".

The Spark (and Bolt) have *active*, *liquid* TMS - much better for hot climes. I try my darndest to not charge when it is hot, but I once *had* to fast charge when it was 102. The battery pack cooling went on as soon as I plugged in to the DCFC, and the charge rate went UP the longer I was connected (as the battery pack cooled down). It started at 9 kW!

NORTON
Posts: 1349
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 5:52 am
Location: KC,MO

Re: Battery Degradation vs Battery Limited Warranty

Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:06 am

SparkE wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 3:32 pm
...The 2020 LEAF has HEATING for the battery pack, and *passive* *air* cooling (for both battery pack sizes, 40 kWh and 60 kWh). Not the best choice for someone living in AZ. ....
I believe it is just 'passive cooling' only. There are no 'air passages' or fans for air cooling. It's just a hot pack that radiates it's heat outward,, some how.

In nicer climates I read that on a road trip where the pack it used and and repeatedly DCFC'ed the pack can be on the hot side, it will throttle down when charging.
Not like the Spark EV's and Bolts where the Pack Cooling System will power up immediately when plugged into a DCFC.

It's a low tech approach toTMS.
'14 Spark EV 2LT w/ DCFC. 85k miles.
'17 Bolt Premier w/ It All! 53k miles.
GM needs Modern Troubleshooting tools for Modern EV's.
3 step Trouble Tree, 1st try, nope, 2nd try / cost $800. 3rd try fixed it.

zzzzzzzz
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:03 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Battery Degradation vs Battery Limited Warranty

Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:05 am

So, I did go test drive the Leaf S Plus yesterday. The car itself, does look more modern then the Spark, felt a little cramp in the back seat even though it's a 5 seater, does have a larger trunk space, makes these weird whirling swooshing noises upon initial acceleration and braking, likely just sound pumped through the speakers, and had the 1 foot pedal feature that I think I could have gotten used to. And the drive and maneuverability wasn't as nimble as the Spark, which I now appreciate a little more. Once upon a time I owned an NA Miata that I had turbo'd and have taken on autocrosses and the weekend twisty trips.

In any case, the experience of negotiating for the Leaf was not that great. The car and deal was at Carr Nissan in Beaverton. They had advertised the price after all these credits and rebates to be $27020. After trade in and change from the car sales price from MSRP to invoice, my out the door price expectation was a little under $21,000. For Spark however, they only offered only $3000, since as the sales person Joel puts it, they already had a $1000 "trade assistance" factored in. That freaking doesn't mean you lower your trade offer by a $1000?! In any case, I had explicitly told them before meeting that I only wanted the Leaf at invoice, which would have been $37520 from an MSRP of $39520. They already had this "dealer" discount of $2000, but I wanted the Invoice price as well. In the end, I guess after some increased DMV EV fees and additional all weather and theft add-ons, the final price ended up being around $29,500. AND, they had advertised 0% financing but informed me that if I wanted that they would have to remove some of the rebates.

What really irked me was the "closer" salesman by the name of Joel, who was put off by me trying to make a small deal, and kept saying they don't need to sell the Leaf's as they sell a lot of them all the time, was just the typical sleezy salesman and pressuring and giving off the "I know better then you" vibe. Very off putting, and a bad experience and one that I think will detract me from ever looking at a Leaf or Nissan car ever again unfortunately. I understand that it may have been because I was trying to get a good deal, but from a seller's perspective, I would have thought they would be a little more willing, given they had 60 2020 Leaf's in stock. 60! "Joel" just kept saying, well, we're the number 1 or 2 Leaf dealership in Oregon, so you can't go to any other Nissan dealership and get the same deal. I just told him, well, from this experience, I may not purchase a Leaf as there are other EV alternatives.

Completely douchery IMO.

Kermit
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:47 am

Re: Battery Degradation vs Battery Limited Warranty

Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:06 am

That's why we bought our last 2 cars from Carvana.
2016 Spark EV
2017 Volt

SparkE
Posts: 435
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:18 am
Location: SF Bay Area (San Jose, CA)

Re: Battery Degradation vs Battery Limited Warranty

Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:52 pm

I have a long list of things I do at car dealerships to (1) not get taken, and (2) fvck with them when they fvck with me. The most useful one is knowing what *their* invoice price is (what they pay) *and* all about the current Rebates and Incentives from (*and to*) the dealer. (Sometimes the dealer gets a bonus from the manufacturer for selling certain vehicles.) Here are a few off the top of my head.

Oh, and I should state that I am an unusual car buyer. I got this from my dad, who grew up at the tail end of the recession (1930s). I save money. I have a "car fund" that I put money in to every month, and when I have enough, I know I can buy a car. If I have to finance 25%, so be it, but my down-payment is always more than half the price. Also, for the past 30 years I have often (but not always) bought used cars (3-5 years old) - often from dealers - which has allowed me to pay cash for my cars as they are less than half the price of new and most modern cars last over 10 years and 100k miles. EVs are even *less* than half price after 3 years. (My Spark EV, bought used, was about 25% of the new price after 4 years - with only 12k miles.)

OK, dealership car buying tips :

- negotiate UP from invoice price, not down from MSRP. KNOW what the invoice price is, print it out, and bring it with you. You should also bring an invoice price list for a car tricked out with every option so that you know what the DEALER (supposedly) pays for each option package.

- get approved for a car loan from your bank or credit union before going in (if you are going to get a loan). If you are buying a car, that is a great reason to open an account at a credit union - generally much better rates on car loans. And if you already have a loan lined up, less time wasted at the dealership and you *can* compare if the loans to see if theirs is better. (If you got it from a credit union, it won't be.) LOOK AT the total amount you paid by the end of the loan - for loans of the exact same duration - that is what you should be comparing. Ask at your credit union for loans of 36, 48, 60, and 72 months, and get pre-approved. Sometimes the % changes, and that way you can compare *whatever* loan the dealer is pushing. I went to negotiate a new car for my daughter 5 years ago. She *wanted* a loan to help establish credit history. She financed 20% of the price over 3 years, with a 1.65% loan from her credit union. At the end of the loan she had paid a total of $382 for the loan (she paid $382 more than she borrowed).

- always talk about total cash price, not monthly payments (talk about trade-in later). "Just get me in the car for the right price and well talk about trade-in or loans later". Or, "'We'll talk about that later, let's just focus on the price of the new car for now" . It is very easy to compare full cash price. The dealer will try to confuse you with "up-front" and "monthly" payments, and anything else they can to get an extra buck or two out of you.

- When dealers are negotiating they hope to make money via financing. So *don't* tell them up front you're paying cash, or not trading in a car, because then the dealer knows he has no opportunity to make money off you from financing or screwing you on the trade-in. So, he might not be as moveable on purchase price if he already knows he isn't going to make any money off you on "the back end". You say "let's deal with the price first, THEN talk about financing an/or trade-in. Price first, details later."

- Dealer holdback. This is a percentage of either the MSRP or invoice price of a new vehicle that the manufacturer repays to the dealer. (The dealer, not the salesman.) So the dealer will get a check for 2% or 3%, or whatever of the amount of the car from the manufacturer, generally at the end of each quarter. Holdbacks enable dealerships to advertise invoice-price sales and sell their vehicles at or near invoice and still make hundreds of dollars on the transaction. The holdback amount is "invisible" to you because it does not appear as an itemized fee on the window sticker. You bring this up at the end of negotiating when it starts to get difficult, especially when they bring in the "closer": "Hey, the dealership is getting the dealer holdback, don't forget that."

- don't be afraid to say "well, you apparently don't want to sell me a car today, I'll go look elsewhere" and walk away. (well, first you pretend to walk away, but you should feel comfortable walking away). If they are the ONLY dealer in the area, you can say "I guess I'll just order the car on the internet and have it delivered". Watch them go completely white in the face. (You should have already looked on-line to see what deals are available, so that you can drop the name of on-line sellers, or other dealerships, at this time).

In fact, I should have started with :
- look online at their inventory. Start with the cheap cars and then look at what features you really want. Print out a few the day you go to the dealer - make sure it lists the VIN ("car ID number"). Also (in the days before) send an email to all the dealerships within 100-200 miles (within the range of your EV). Tell them what you want and ask for a price. START from there, because with an email you can go to your closest dealer and pull the printed email out at the right time and use it to negotiate, if needed.

- don't get sucked into buying a different model, or extra options. Dealership will advertise the lowest possible price, with every discount, on a "stripped" model. They may not even have it on-site when they advertise. When I bought my Corolla (yeah, over 20 years ago) I walked in with the ad and said I wanted that car. They told me it had been sold, the day before, that the ads were set up days or even a week or two in advance. I said "funny, when I called an hour ago I was told you still had the car still on the lot". He hemmed and hawed. I said that was the car I wanted, no frills, and I guess I'd just go to {named his biggest competitor}. I got the car I wanted with ONE extra option package (power steering and A/C, which I wanted anyhow) for $75 over the advertised price.

- When the salesman balks try this phrase : "I want a car, I'm trying to give you money - TODAY - but not at that price" and/or (maybe later repeat the mantra) "I am trying to give you money, why won't you take it, what is wrong ?"

- don't accept any "dealer extras" (such as car alarms, or undercoating). Duh.

- sell your own car as an individual, don't trade it in. Frankly, you will get a better price. Often a MUCH better price.

- Since salesmen and dealerships get bonuses for amount of product moved on a monthly and/or quarterly basis, it is best to go buy a car on a "slow day" (not many other customers) AND when the sale means a lot to them. So, during the week, when the weather sucks and near the end of the month. Even better, near the end of the QUARTER when the dealership's quarterly bonus is going to be calculated.

Don't believe “the deal is only good today”. Or, the proper response is "if the deal is good enough, then we can do it today. If it isn't, I'll just go somewhere else."

Summary of useful phrases :

"No, I won't pay that fee"

"I want to give you money today, you don't want it?"

"You are going to be paying the finance costs as long as that car is on your lot, whether its's a week or a month or three months. You don't want to sell it today?" (Dealers generally borrow money to pay for cars. Sometimes, not often, dealers get the cars 'fronted' to them by the manufacturer for a VERY short period of time.)

SparkE
Posts: 435
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:18 am
Location: SF Bay Area (San Jose, CA)

Re: Battery Degradation vs Battery Limited Warranty

Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:02 pm

Concerning Dealer fees : they will try to kill you with fees , putting more money in their pocket.

look at the sticker to see if there is both a destination charge as well as a delivery charge. If there is, tell the dealer you aren't paying the delivery charge, because it's nonsense. The Destination Charge, found at the bottom of the Monroney (window sticker) label is an accepted fee.

Advertising Charge: This is BS. This nonsense fee can be hundreds of dollars. "I didn't come in here because of an advertisement. I came in to look at cars and maybe buy one based on what I saw."

Documentation fee: Dealers often play hard ball on this fee, which can be as high as $400.00, and is said to cover their cost of handling paperwork like registering the car, getting your credit score, etc. Make them break it down for you line by line, and be willing to pay only what the dealer really spent out of pocket. "You want me to pay $400 for some guy to sit down at the computer for 10 minutes to register the car at DMV?" . "This is just your cost of doing business, I am not paying for that."

Dealer Prep: Forget it. This is a fee that dealers like to charge to cover washing and vacuuming , etc. the car. This the cost of doing business and selling a clean car. And it doesn't cost $50 to wash a car. ("You are paying your car washers $150 and hour? Forget it, I'll take it down the street and get it detailed for $30.")

Rust, Paint and Fabric Protection: Complete BS - don't fall for it. "Are you telling me that this is such a crappy product that it is going to rust? Maybe I shouldn't be buying it."

Extended Warranties: If you really want one, go third-party AFTER the purchase. But in an EV, the drivetrain and battery and charging system is guaranteed for a LONG time. EVs generally don't have major problems, and the "fit and finish" problems (leak, door or dashboard mis-aligned, seat glider stuck, radio wonky, etc) are covered under the original warranty. And if you don't find them in the first 3 years it really isn't that important, is it?

After the price is agreed upon, ask the dealer to present you with the invoice. At this point, review all the fees, and tell the salesperson that you aren't going to pay all these fees, and start going over them one by one. Be prepared and query them on each one. Insist on some of these being waived (like the delivery charge if it's on top of a destination charge), and cutting down other fees like the preparation charge. The advertising fee is non-negotiable for you, so don't pay it under any circumstances.

When the salesperson is stubborn on these fees and brings in a sales manager or some other staffer to back him up, don't give in. Dealers have a bagful of deceits and lies and time-honored ploys to get you to pay them as much as possible. Hang tough.

Remember, you can always walk away and go to another dealer. It's your money, and your choice. "Wow - I really planned on giving you money today. I guess not. Well, I have all the time in the world to buy a car. I guess I'll go somewhere else." (Remember : they just invested an hour or three trying to get you to buy - they REALLY want to get you to buy that car at this point.)

Go into the dealership *ready* to walk out without a car. If you are thrown curveballs you aren't ready for, or you don't like the way the process is going, just leave. Nothing is stopping you from getting out of the showroom. Go home to gather your thoughts and research what you weren't prepared for. The dealer will be open the next day. And the next day. As are all his competitors.

Oh, and lastly:

Q: How do you know when a car salesman is lying to you? A: His lips are moving.

(You may have gotten the impression that I have a low opinion of car salesmen. That would be a correct impression.)

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