jerb2k
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:43 am

Replacement Battery Cost

Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:03 pm

Hey guys,

I've been away for a while, but reading some of these threads got me wondering...

Does anyone know what the cost of a replacement battery will be yet when the day comes that all our batteries are out of warrantee and the range is no longer useable for our daily commutes?

I remember looking into this a year ago and calling multiple dealers but nobody really knew since they weren't available. Probably still the case but just thought I'd throw the question out for discussion.


2016 Sparky w/15k+ miles

whomadewho
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:42 am

Re: Replacement Battery Cost

Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:19 pm

That's very hard to guess. The main factors will be falling cost of battery technology which will (almost certainly) be much cheaper than today. See this chart at Business Insider for an example of how rapidly the technology is changing and costs dropping:
http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-el ... art-2017-1

Power Density of the cells are following a similar trajectory (inverted) (the Bolt already uses higher density cells than the Spark EV did), so any replacement that comes available should also translate into much greater range.)
some notes on Cell Power Density here:
https://cleantechnica.com/2016/09/03/ch ... e-another/


Another factor will be how big a production run on the batteries will be needed (smaller production run = higher cost per unit); so if more Spark EV's stay on the road, the chances are good some kind of aftermarket battery bank replacement will exist.

SparkE
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:18 am
Location: SF Bay Area (San Jose, CA)

Re: Replacement Battery Cost

Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:13 pm

jerb2k wrote:Hey guys,

Does anyone know what the cost of a replacement battery will be yet when the day comes that all our batteries are out of warrantee and the range is no longer useable for our daily commutes?
No, nobody knows.

A similar question : how much will a flight from San Francisco to Stockholm cost on July 28th, 2021?

MrDRMorgan
Posts: 1138
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:27 am
Location: Manteca in Central California

Re: Replacement Battery Cost

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:01 am

SparkE wrote:
jerb2k wrote:Hey guys,

Does anyone know what the cost of a replacement battery will be yet when the day comes that all our batteries are out of warrantee and the range is no longer useable for our daily commutes?
No, nobody knows.

A similar question : how much will a flight from San Francisco to Stockholm cost on July 28th, 2021?
Today, a replacement HV battery for the 2015 / 2016 Spark EV - GM p/n 23468683 - is about $10,800 each and that is not installed! It will be interesting to see how fast the price drops by the time our Spark EV HV batteries degrade by more than 35% or 8 years or 100K miles - which ever comes first.

sparkyps
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 1:54 pm

Re: Replacement Battery Cost

Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:42 am

MrDRMorgan wrote:
SparkE wrote:
jerb2k wrote:Hey guys,

Does anyone know what the cost of a replacement battery will be yet when the day comes that all our batteries are out of warrantee and the range is no longer useable for our daily commutes?
No, nobody knows.

A similar question : how much will a flight from San Francisco to Stockholm cost on July 28th, 2021?
Today, a replacement HV battery for the 2015 / 2016 Spark EV - GM p/n 23468683 - is about $10,800 each and that is not installed! It will be interesting to see how fast the price drops by the time our Spark EV HV batteries degrade by more than 35% or 8 years or 100K miles - which ever comes first.

I doubt the price from GM will drop at all, they have zero incentive to keep any Spark EVs on the road after 8yrs/100,000 miles.

If they gracefully degrade as opposed to simply failing they'll still be a fine in-city, short trip vehicle.

MrDRMorgan
Posts: 1138
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:27 am
Location: Manteca in Central California

Re: Replacement Battery Cost

Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:50 pm

A 2015 Spark EV battery goes out of warranty if the battery degrades more than 35% - probably determined by a static discharge test - within 8 years or 100k miles. Than means the battery fails the warranty limit if the capacity drops below 12 kWh given a starting capacity of 18.4 kWh. At 5 mi/kWh, a full charge would still give you 60 miles of range which is ok for most short local trips and, with more frequent DCFC charging, some longer trips. Cold weather will certainly shorten the usable range.

SparkSS
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:51 pm

Re: Replacement Battery Cost

Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:17 pm

While there are lots of things that we don't know at this point in time, by the time another 4-5 years pass, we should know several things:

How are the batteries holding up after 6-9 years and 80k+ miles. I haven't notice any posts from hi-mileage owners. What is the current know highest miles by model year?

Correlating to the above, we will have a good idea of the warranty claim rate and Chevy's approach.

Do 2015/16 batteries work with 2014 cars? Is it a straight mechanical swap? Does this require a software upgrade or change?

Both the price of, and mysteries behind, battery packs will drop. Either GM, LG, or the aftermarket will figure out how to build newer-tech battery packs and fit them into older EV's. This already happened with the Spark between 2014 and 2015. Making Bolt cells fit into the Spark is not going to be a big challenge. It's just a question of who does it.

I believe that GM will liquidate their NOS old-tech battery packs as soon as possible. The only question is whether they or the aftermarket will supply new-tech packs.

We should know by then if there is enough interest in the hot rod/tinkerer/aftermarket community to hack the software to change the current torque-limiting parameters, and also the top speed restrictions. I suspect that this will happen.

By then, it should possible to upgrade/swap out chargers to increase the charging speed at a more reasonable price point.

No guarantees on any of this, but that is what I expect.

SparkevBlogspot
Posts: 499
Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 12:19 pm

Re: Replacement Battery Cost

Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:43 pm

I was quoted about $35K for replacement battery by the dealer. Parts person couldn't believe it, either. There's a GM parts web site that showed two prices for 2014 battery: $22K and $11K. It's not clear why the difference, though some speculated cheaper is with core return credit. Link was mentioned in this forum some time ago.

Agreed the time will reveal more things to come. However, I am not sure if A123 batteries in 2014 SparkEV will ever go down in price if offered at all. That's because they no longer make the cells, and not sure if current china made ones are the same. That means whatever A123 GM has in stock (doubtful if any in stock) would've been bought in 2014 or earlier at much higher cost.

More likely, they'll replace with 2015+ LG cell batteries, which is getting cheaper thanks to Bolt and Volt and probably Nissan, Tesla, etc who also buy LG. There are physically fewer cells in 2015+ (96 in series) vs 2014 (112 in series), and the software must be tweaked. That also presents a problem with 2014 with 2015+ battery since mechanical gear ratio is lower, but not sure if LG batteries can deliver the current to make 400 ft-lb at the motor. They may have to detune to 327 ft-lb in software while keeping the gear ratio same as 2014.

NORTON
Posts: 1315
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 5:52 am
Location: KC,MO

Re: Replacement Battery Cost

Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:54 am

SparkSS wrote:.... the hot rod/tinkerer/aftermarket community to hack the software to change the current torque-limiting parameters, and also the top speed restrictions. I suspect that this will happen.....
Hot Rodders know that the little gears in a gear box can only handle X amount of torque, (let alone the little tires).
I'm now sure if Hot Rodders know that electric motors have a Red Line RPM, just like old school gas engines.
Used '14 2LT w/ DCFC. +83k miles.
Mostly free charging! Only one LONG visit to the shop....
GM needs Modern Troubleshooting tools for Modern EV's.
3 step Trouble Tree, 1st try car died again, 2nd try not covered / cost $800. 3rd try fixed the problem.

SparkSS
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:51 pm

Re: Replacement Battery Cost

Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:14 am

NORTON wrote:
SparkSS wrote:.... the hot rod/tinkerer/aftermarket community to hack the software to change the current torque-limiting parameters, and also the top speed restrictions. I suspect that this will happen.....
Hot Rodders know that the little gears in a gear box can only handle X amount of torque, (let alone the little tires).
I'm now sure if Hot Rodders know that electric motors have a Red Line RPM, just like old school gas engines.
LOL. Not sure if the condescension was intentional or accidental, but I love it. Hot rodders increase power until things break, then beef up the weak links. I'm pretty sure the CV joints will let go before the ”gear box”. (corrected the autocorrect)

Fatter, stickier tires are one of the first performance mods for the limitations you mention.

A good tuner will contour the torque curve, rather than just unleashing everything at once, but it is pretty obvious that GM has been limiting power. I don't know how much, as I haven't seen any Spark EV dyno pulls.

I could be wrong. It's possible that nobody in the performance industry will care enough about the Spark EV to play with it.

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