Replacement Battery Cost

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jerb2k

Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2016
Messages
6
Hey guys,

I've been away for a while, but reading some of these threads got me wondering...

Does anyone know what the cost of a replacement battery will be yet when the day comes that all our batteries are out of warrantee and the range is no longer useable for our daily commutes?

I remember looking into this a year ago and calling multiple dealers but nobody really knew since they weren't available. Probably still the case but just thought I'd throw the question out for discussion.


2016 Sparky w/15k+ miles
 
That's very hard to guess. The main factors will be falling cost of battery technology which will (almost certainly) be much cheaper than today. See this chart at Business Insider for an example of how rapidly the technology is changing and costs dropping:
http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-electric-car-vehicle-battery-cost-chart-2017-1

Power Density of the cells are following a similar trajectory (inverted) (the Bolt already uses higher density cells than the Spark EV did), so any replacement that comes available should also translate into much greater range.)
some notes on Cell Power Density here:
https://cleantechnica.com/2016/09/03/chevy-bolt-chevy-spark-ev-battery-packs-compare-one-another/


Another factor will be how big a production run on the batteries will be needed (smaller production run = higher cost per unit); so if more Spark EV's stay on the road, the chances are good some kind of aftermarket battery bank replacement will exist.
 
jerb2k said:
Hey guys,

Does anyone know what the cost of a replacement battery will be yet when the day comes that all our batteries are out of warrantee and the range is no longer useable for our daily commutes?

No, nobody knows.

A similar question : how much will a flight from San Francisco to Stockholm cost on July 28th, 2021?
 
SparkE said:
jerb2k said:
Hey guys,

Does anyone know what the cost of a replacement battery will be yet when the day comes that all our batteries are out of warrantee and the range is no longer useable for our daily commutes?

No, nobody knows.

A similar question : how much will a flight from San Francisco to Stockholm cost on July 28th, 2021?

Today, a replacement HV battery for the 2015 / 2016 Spark EV - GM p/n 23468683 - is about $10,800 each and that is not installed! It will be interesting to see how fast the price drops by the time our Spark EV HV batteries degrade by more than 35% or 8 years or 100K miles - which ever comes first.
 
MrDRMorgan said:
SparkE said:
jerb2k said:
Hey guys,

Does anyone know what the cost of a replacement battery will be yet when the day comes that all our batteries are out of warrantee and the range is no longer useable for our daily commutes?

No, nobody knows.

A similar question : how much will a flight from San Francisco to Stockholm cost on July 28th, 2021?

Today, a replacement HV battery for the 2015 / 2016 Spark EV - GM p/n 23468683 - is about $10,800 each and that is not installed! It will be interesting to see how fast the price drops by the time our Spark EV HV batteries degrade by more than 35% or 8 years or 100K miles - which ever comes first.


I doubt the price from GM will drop at all, they have zero incentive to keep any Spark EVs on the road after 8yrs/100,000 miles.

If they gracefully degrade as opposed to simply failing they'll still be a fine in-city, short trip vehicle.
 
A 2015 Spark EV battery goes out of warranty if the battery degrades more than 35% - probably determined by a static discharge test - within 8 years or 100k miles. Than means the battery fails the warranty limit if the capacity drops below 12 kWh given a starting capacity of 18.4 kWh. At 5 mi/kWh, a full charge would still give you 60 miles of range which is ok for most short local trips and, with more frequent DCFC charging, some longer trips. Cold weather will certainly shorten the usable range.
 
While there are lots of things that we don't know at this point in time, by the time another 4-5 years pass, we should know several things:

How are the batteries holding up after 6-9 years and 80k+ miles. I haven't notice any posts from hi-mileage owners. What is the current know highest miles by model year?

Correlating to the above, we will have a good idea of the warranty claim rate and Chevy's approach.

Do 2015/16 batteries work with 2014 cars? Is it a straight mechanical swap? Does this require a software upgrade or change?

Both the price of, and mysteries behind, battery packs will drop. Either GM, LG, or the aftermarket will figure out how to build newer-tech battery packs and fit them into older EV's. This already happened with the Spark between 2014 and 2015. Making Bolt cells fit into the Spark is not going to be a big challenge. It's just a question of who does it.

I believe that GM will liquidate their NOS old-tech battery packs as soon as possible. The only question is whether they or the aftermarket will supply new-tech packs.

We should know by then if there is enough interest in the hot rod/tinkerer/aftermarket community to hack the software to change the current torque-limiting parameters, and also the top speed restrictions. I suspect that this will happen.

By then, it should possible to upgrade/swap out chargers to increase the charging speed at a more reasonable price point.

No guarantees on any of this, but that is what I expect.
 
I was quoted about $35K for replacement battery by the dealer. Parts person couldn't believe it, either. There's a GM parts web site that showed two prices for 2014 battery: $22K and $11K. It's not clear why the difference, though some speculated cheaper is with core return credit. Link was mentioned in this forum some time ago.

Agreed the time will reveal more things to come. However, I am not sure if A123 batteries in 2014 SparkEV will ever go down in price if offered at all. That's because they no longer make the cells, and not sure if current china made ones are the same. That means whatever A123 GM has in stock (doubtful if any in stock) would've been bought in 2014 or earlier at much higher cost.

More likely, they'll replace with 2015+ LG cell batteries, which is getting cheaper thanks to Bolt and Volt and probably Nissan, Tesla, etc who also buy LG. There are physically fewer cells in 2015+ (96 in series) vs 2014 (112 in series), and the software must be tweaked. That also presents a problem with 2014 with 2015+ battery since mechanical gear ratio is lower, but not sure if LG batteries can deliver the current to make 400 ft-lb at the motor. They may have to detune to 327 ft-lb in software while keeping the gear ratio same as 2014.
 
SparkSS said:
.... the hot rod/tinkerer/aftermarket community to hack the software to change the current torque-limiting parameters, and also the top speed restrictions. I suspect that this will happen.....
Hot Rodders know that the little gears in a gear box can only handle X amount of torque, (let alone the little tires).
I'm now sure if Hot Rodders know that electric motors have a Red Line RPM, just like old school gas engines.
 
NORTON said:
SparkSS said:
.... the hot rod/tinkerer/aftermarket community to hack the software to change the current torque-limiting parameters, and also the top speed restrictions. I suspect that this will happen.....
Hot Rodders know that the little gears in a gear box can only handle X amount of torque, (let alone the little tires).
I'm now sure if Hot Rodders know that electric motors have a Red Line RPM, just like old school gas engines.
LOL. Not sure if the condescension was intentional or accidental, but I love it. Hot rodders increase power until things break, then beef up the weak links. I'm pretty sure the CV joints will let go before the ”gear box”. (corrected the autocorrect)

Fatter, stickier tires are one of the first performance mods for the limitations you mention.

A good tuner will contour the torque curve, rather than just unleashing everything at once, but it is pretty obvious that GM has been limiting power. I don't know how much, as I haven't seen any Spark EV dyno pulls.

I could be wrong. It's possible that nobody in the performance industry will care enough about the Spark EV to play with it.
 
if i am unlucky enough to not have degraded past 35% to get a free battery, then I will still be able to get 50 miles a day. That is still plenty, but i would probably just charge everyday to get rid of range anxiety. Hopefully i will still get free charging around town in vegas. they have a few good places that are still free. I dont c myself spending 10k or even 5k for a new battery if im still getting 50 miles.
 
First time poster, long time owner. I have 61,000 miles on my 2014 Spark EV (purchased in February 2014, right before high speed charging became an option on the car, argh!). I have lost approximately 20% of my useable batter capacity which puts me right around the 35% battery warranty number right when I get to 100,000 miles. I commute 134 miles per day round trip, 4 days a week. My drive home involves insane range anxiety every day because I am going up 1,000 feet of elevation on the drive home. I barely made it through the mild southern California winter. Summer is here so it is getting easier again to make it home, but by the time I make it to the late fall I will not be able to make it home from work without a significant decrease in speed. Chevy has really put Spark EV owners in a bind by not offering a formal battery replacement program like Nissan. There are plenty of well written articles about Nissan owners getting their 2011/12 Leaf batteries replaced for free because of degradation. They are even getting a new, more modern battery. The resale market will eventually bottom out for short range EV's like Leaf's and Spark's, but right now the bottom is nowhere in sight. There are listings on autotrader.com for $6,200 for a 2014 Spark EV with less miles than mine. Ouch! Since Chevy is not providing a reasonably priced replacement battery they are essentially telling owners we have no options. Watch the depreciation continue to almost nothing in less than five years.

I have only seen one poster with slightly more miles than me. Based on my current commute I may be the first owner to 100,000 miles, but not certain about that. If Chevy doesn't provide an option soon, they are risking a class action lawsuit. If it can be proven that they did not intend to support their product (aka no battery replacement program) than they misled all of the owners like me that purchased the car brand new for $26k +. That is the primary cause for super low used car values in my opinion. I know Leaf used prices are low too, but at least there is a floor on them since they can replace the battery. If battery prices are coming down as fast as the articles say they are, a 20kw battery should be well below $4,000 soon. Besides 4 new tires, I have done no maintenance on my car. If more people find out how cheap electric vehicles are to operate, an 80 mile range EV would still be very attractive once they become truly mainstream (2 more years?).

When I bought my Spark I had an 8 mile round trip commute and free charging stations at my work. After the $10k in credits and rebates, I thought I was sitting pretty good at $17k all in price and no maintenance and operating expenses. Now I am upside down $8k because of how much faster the car depreciated than my principal payments on my car loan. Sorry for the long post. I have tons of positives to say about the car, but this battery thing is the one big con that I am struggling with.
 
davidbilby said:
First time poster, long time owner. I have 61,000 miles on my 2014 Spark EV (purchased in February 2014, right before high speed charging became an option on the car, argh!). I have lost approximately 20% of my useable batter capacity which puts me right around the 35% battery warranty number right when I get to 100,000 miles. I commute 134 miles per day round trip, 4 days a week. My drive home involves insane range anxiety every day because I am going up 1,000 feet of elevation on the drive home. I barely made it through the mild southern California winter. Summer is here so it is getting easier again to make it home, but by the time I make it to the late fall I will not be able to make it home from work without a significant decrease in speed. Chevy has really put Spark EV owners in a bind by not offering a formal battery replacement program like Nissan. There are plenty of well written articles about Nissan owners getting their 2011/12 Leaf batteries replaced for free because of degradation. They are even getting a new, more modern battery. The resale market will eventually bottom out for short range EV's like Leaf's and Spark's, but right now the bottom is nowhere in sight. There are listings on autotrader.com for $6,200 for a 2014 Spark EV with less miles than mine. Ouch! Since Chevy is not providing a reasonably priced replacement battery they are essentially telling owners we have no options. Watch the depreciation continue to almost nothing in less than five years.

I have only seen one poster with slightly more miles than me. Based on my current commute I may be the first owner to 100,000 miles, but not certain about that. If Chevy doesn't provide an option soon, they are risking a class action lawsuit. If it can be proven that they did not intend to support their product (aka no battery replacement program) than they misled all of the owners like me that purchased the car brand new for $26k +. That is the primary cause for super low used car values in my opinion. I know Leaf used prices are low too, but at least there is a floor on them since they can replace the battery. If battery prices are coming down as fast as the articles say they are, a 20kw battery should be well below $4,000 soon. Besides 4 new tires, I have done no maintenance on my car. If more people find out how cheap electric vehicles are to operate, an 80 mile range EV would still be very attractive once they become truly mainstream (2 more years?).

When I bought my Spark I had an 8 mile round trip commute and free charging stations at my work. After the $10k in credits and rebates, I thought I was sitting pretty good at $17k all in price and no maintenance and operating expenses. Now I am upside down $8k because of how much faster the car depreciated than my principal payments on my car loan. Sorry for the long post. I have tons of positives to say about the car, but this battery thing is the one big con that I am struggling with.

Welcome and thanks for your post. In spite of what Tesla fanbois might claim, from all that I can gather, depreciation appears to be the most expensive cost of owning an EV. Between advancing battery tech, gov't subsidies, and concerns about post-warranty repair costs, resale values of EV's suck. IMHO, our collective experience with electronics is that each generation of product costs less, and as they approach end-of-life, replacement becomes much more attractive than repair. It appears that we view EV's in much the same manner. ith good reason, from my point of view. "Planned obsolescence", "disposable", etc.

I believe that GM could already replace the battery with a 30kWh unit for under $5500 if they so desired, but I have my doubts as to that happening. I don't expect it to happen, but it would be great if they offered a warranty/upgrade option, where owners could get their batteries upgraded back to nominal or better, with the owner and the factory splitting the cost on some equitable basis. Unless something like that happens, I would also expect resale values to continue to suffer.
 
davidbilby said:
If Chevy doesn't provide an option soon, they are risking a class action lawsuit.
Lawsuit? Nissan did not provide capacity degradation warranty initially, and many Leaf degraded far quicker than what Nissan claimed. Losing 30% in couple of years is far beyond Nissan claimed life of 8 years. That was the basis for the lawsuit, and Nissan's reluctant "8 out of 12 bars" replacement program.

SparkEV battery is not degrading like Leaf. If it's degrading so that it'll lose 35% in 8 years, that's perfectly within the warranty promise. If 35% occur within 8 year period, Chevy will replace the battery, unlike Nissan who refused until the lawsuit. I don't see how one could argue a lawsuit when a product holds up to warranty.

Sure, Chevy might (or might not) replace your battery if you threaten them to not deal with court hassles, but that cost will be passed on to all future EV, or even Chevy to get out of EV business at first opportunity. Already, they face tremendous lawsuit risk by making cars, and frivolous lawsuits for EV doing what it was promised to do is going to make it more difficult to justify making EV. It will be a shame if Chevy EV goes the way of Blitz gas can due to idiotic lawsuits.

https://stateimpact.npr.org/oklahoma/2012/07/09/why-the-largest-maker-of-portable-gas-cans-is-going-out-of-business/
 
If 35% occur within 8 year period, Chevy will replace the battery

I have a 2014 Spark EV and live in the Los Angeles area and am coming up on 45,000 miles. When I was at the Chevy dealer a few weeks back getting some recall work done I complained about the battery capacity being noticeably reduced. I am seeing about a 4kW decrease in total capacity which is about 25%. The service person looked into "things" and came back with a "memo" that states that my range is dependent on many things, driving style, braking, temperature, etc basically a variety of things. I explained to them that I was completely aware of these things as I have already been driving the car for over 3 years and knew all about the things that affect my range. I reiterated that I was NOT complaining about my range being reduced, but my battery capacity. They just smiled and handed me the tech bulletin. When I asked if they could/would test my battery pack, as the warranty book that comes with the car CLEARLY states they will do if the battery is loosing capacity faster than a given allowable schedule, they just said "no".

So my question is, has ANYONE had a Chevrolet dealer actually run a battery test on their Spark EV? If they flat out refuse to even attempt to service the battery system, that is a great cause for alarm for me.
 
adambant said:
If 35% occur within 8 year period, Chevy will replace the battery
...When I asked if they could/would test my battery pack, ... they just said "no".
So my question is, has ANYONE had a Chevrolet dealer actually run a battery test on their Spark EV? ....
I don't understand...
How is their 'test' any different than the data the car gives you on the 'Power usage' page?
As we all know, you have to keep a log for a while because the daily data fluctuates.

If you are no where near that magic 35% degradation, or whatever it is, why bother those dogs?
They have smelly oil changes to do. Give'em a break..... :lol:
 
adambant said:
If 35% occur within 8 year period, Chevy will replace the battery

I have a 2014 Spark EV and live in the Los Angeles area and am coming up on 45,000 miles. When I was at the Chevy dealer a few weeks back getting some recall work done I complained about the battery capacity being noticeably reduced. I am seeing about a 4kW decrease in total capacity which is about 25%. The service person looked into "things" and came back with a "memo" that states that my range is dependent on many things, driving style, braking, temperature, etc basically a variety of things. I explained to them that I was completely aware of these things as I have already been driving the car for over 3 years and knew all about the things that affect my range. I reiterated that I was NOT complaining about my range being reduced, but my battery capacity. They just smiled and handed me the tech bulletin. When I asked if they could/would test my battery pack, as the warranty book that comes with the car CLEARLY states they will do if the battery is loosing capacity faster than a given allowable schedule, they just said "no".

So my question is, has ANYONE had a Chevrolet dealer actually run a battery test on their Spark EV? If they flat out refuse to even attempt to service the battery system, that is a great cause for alarm for me.

The dealer would need to perform a Static Capacity Discharge test similar to what the Idaho National Laboratory does. I suspect the dealer does not have the equipment nor the test-method knowledge to do this test.

Go to https://avt.inl.gov/content/pubs-vehicles#C, click on C for Chevrolet and scroll down to Spark EV. There is Static Discharge battery test data for 4 different 2015 Chevrolet Spark EVs. The Static Capacity Discharge test is clearly explained.
 
adambant said:
I am seeing about a 4kW decrease in total capacity which is about 25%.
As Norton mentioned, if you're nowhere near 35%, why even bother the dealer? Carefully testing the battery is an ordeal that takes lots of time. Even if it doesn't take "man-power", it does take up equipment time and floor space. They may even have to give you a rental for few days. They wouldn't do this for something that is not yet broken to the limit.

As for 4kWh (I assume you meant kWh, not kW) and 25%, that doesn't make sense. 2014 has about 19.5 kWh usable capacity, and 25% loss would mean about 4.875 kWh loss (almost 5 kWh). 4 kWh is only 20.5%. Until you see at least 6.5 to 7 kWh degradation, I wouldn't bother the dealer.

AFAIK, there wasn't any posting in this forum related to gradual battery degradation that required warranty service. There have been few that said the battery just died.

Battery capacity degradation is annoying but that's what we signed up for. Given that 2014 SparkEV was rated 82 miles got 98 miles (120% of rating) at highway speed (62 MPH), 20% degradation would put it right at about original estimated range after 3 years. That ain't bad, considering Leaf was rated 84 miles range and got 85 miles at same speed while many batteries lost 30% in first couple of years. Think of it this way; you now have something closer to a brand new 24 kWh Leaf (or maybe 3 month old one), but probably lot less battery degradation from this point than any new Leaf.
 
Unless your car has a drastic reduction in range (like less than 50 miles), or the battery fails completely, they're not going to do anything. GM doesn't show us battery capacity so that they can claim small losses in range are due to driving style and/or weather. We all know the batteries are degrading, but we have no way to prove it or illustrate it to a dealer.

It was actually a very smart business decision to give us less info so that we could only complain about significant issues. Nissan went the other way with the Leaf (visible battery capacity gauge), and it has cost them a lot of battery replacements.
 
CCIE said:
GM doesn't show us battery capacity
While GM doesn't give "bars" like Leaf, what we get with "leaf button" info is far more accurate. Since it shows battery capacity from full charge, it effectively calibrates each time you take a valid reading (ie. known full charge), and it shows numbers, not some nebulous "bars". Depending on how % and kWh line up, you can have well over 200 data points for one full charge-discharge cycle with which to estimate the capacity. Assuming random sampling (resulting Gaussian distribution in estimate), you can figure out the confidence of such data using statistical methods.

In order to get similar data from Leaf, you have to get after-market "Leaf-Spy" device. Leaf "bars" are not linear with first bar being much larger than subsequent ones. And even then, they had lots of issues with "bar sensor" which they attributed to battery capacity complaints. Sure, losing 4 bars with Leaf is a sign to take it to the shop, but that may mean it has degraded more than 35% when that happens. I doubt Nissan err'ed on the side of having less degradation showing 4 bars lost; they "fixed" that problem early on.
 
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