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AbelGoddard

Active member
Joined
Jun 27, 2017
Messages
42
I have never needed to charge at an evgo station in my Ford Focus Electric, and have never signed up for any kind of plan with them. I see now that they offer a Flex plan where you pay as you go, basically. Here's the question, related to the price of charging: they want to charge $4.95 to plug it in, and $.20/minute thereafter for DC charging. From close to depleted, how long would a DC charge take to get a useful amount of power? I'm guessing 10-20 minutes?
 
I sometimes use the EvGo charging stations when I am unable to charge at work, or when I have an unexpected trip to make on the weekends.
I love having peace of mind, knowing that if I am away from home and running low on energy, I can charge my car(Spark) in only 25 mins.
The charging stations are usually in shopping centers. So I can do some window shopping while I wait for the car to charge.

I also have the ChargePoint app on my phone. Most of the charging stations in my area use a ChargePoint account, including the one at work.
The only downside with them is that it will take a few hours to charge. But since it is free to use at my work, I don't mind.

I recommend downloading the ChargeHub app. It will show you all of the charging stations in your area, and will let you know what kind of charging they do.
 
If you use eVgo more than 2 times a month, it's cheaper to get OTG plan and pay $15/mo. Assuming 20 minutes per session, 3 sessions with FLEX would be

($5 + $0.20*20) * 3 = $27

OTG would be

$15 + ($0.10 * 20) * 3 = $21 (3 sessions)
$15 + ($0.10 * 20) * 4 = $23 (4 sessions)
$15 + ($0.10 * 20) * 5 = $25 (5 sessions)
$15 + ($0.10 * 20) * 6 = $27 (6 sessions)
$15 + ($0.10 * 20) * 7 = $29 (7 sessions)
$15 + ($0.10 * 20) * 8 = $31 (8 sessions)

I use one or two DCFC per week, mainly on weekends for beach outings, so OTG is a money saver for me. It's also good to not "white-knuckle" a trip to avoid using DCFC.

As for usable, that depends on what you deem usable. SparkEV will give you 0% to 80% in about 20 minutes (3.8 miles per minutes in my case, or 222 miles per hour equivalent), and pretty linearly. See this blog post on summary of my 104 DCFC sessions with eVgo.

http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2017/05/year-of-dc-fast-charging-and-battery.html
 
SparkevBlogspot said:
If you use eVgo more than 2 times a month, it's cheaper to get OTG plan and pay $15/mo. Assuming 20 minutes per session, 3 sessions with FLEX would be

($5 + $0.20*20) * 3 = $27

OTG would be

$15 + ($0.10 * 20) * 3 = $21 (3 sessions)
$15 + ($0.10 * 20) * 4 = $23 (4 sessions)
$15 + ($0.10 * 20) * 5 = $25 (5 sessions)
$15 + ($0.10 * 20) * 6 = $27 (6 sessions)
$15 + ($0.10 * 20) * 7 = $29 (7 sessions)
$15 + ($0.10 * 20) * 8 = $31 (8 sessions)

I use one or two DCFC per week, mainly on weekends for beach outings, so OTG is a money saver for me. It's also good to not "white-knuckle" a trip to avoid using DCFC.

As for usable, that depends on what you deem usable. SparkEV will give you 0% to 80% in about 20 minutes (3.8 miles per minutes in my case, or 222 miles per hour equivalent), and pretty linearly. See this blog post on summary of my 104 DCFC sessions with eVgo.

http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2017/05/year-of-dc-fast-charging-and-battery.html

For me, PlugShare plus EVgo makes EV driving worry free. As more and more EVgo stations come online, range anxiety will fade into your memory.
 
I recommend learning where all the charging stations are in your area. Don't rely to much on your phone.
I once had to call a tow truck to take my Spark to the nearest charging station.
When I am driving on a longer trip, I usually use my phone to lookup charging stations in the area.
Unfortunately, that one night I really needed to charge up my car, my phone battery died. So I couldn't find a station in time.
 
ncerna said:
I once had to call a tow truck to take my Spark to the nearest charging station.
It seems you only had the car few weeks, yet you had to replace the tires and get it towed? Bad luck following you?

Agree about knowing DCFC locations. Even with the phone, it's sometimes tricky to find. I visited every DCFC in the area and en-route to places I normally go just so that I know exactly where they are.
 
SparkevBlogspot said:
If you use eVgo more than 2 times a month, it's cheaper to get OTG plan and pay $15/mo. Assuming 20 minutes per session, 3 sessions with FLEX would be

($5 + $0.20*20) * 3 = $27

OTG would be

$15 + ($0.10 * 20) * 3 = $21 (3 sessions)
$15 + ($0.10 * 20) * 4 = $23 (4 sessions)
$15 + ($0.10 * 20) * 5 = $25 (5 sessions)
$15 + ($0.10 * 20) * 6 = $27 (6 sessions)
$15 + ($0.10 * 20) * 7 = $29 (7 sessions)
$15 + ($0.10 * 20) * 8 = $31 (8 sessions)

I use one or two DCFC per week, mainly on weekends for beach outings, so OTG is a money saver for me. It's also good to not "white-knuckle" a trip to avoid using DCFC.

As for usable, that depends on what you deem usable. SparkEV will give you 0% to 80% in about 20 minutes (3.8 miles per minutes in my case, or 222 miles per hour equivalent), and pretty linearly. See this blog post on summary of my 104 DCFC sessions with eVgo.

http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2017/05/year-of-dc-fast-charging-and-battery.html

EVgo, not satisfied with their previous level of fiscal raping of EV drivers, has raised their rates (prob only for new subscribers) :

Monthly fee: $19.95 _ DC fast : 20¢ / min.* (the Flex rate is still $4.95 session + 20¢ / min.)
 
So has anyone done the math on what the EVGo charging prices translate to in comparison to traditional MPG cost?

Living in Illinois and a north Chicago suburb, public EV spots are few and far between but we charge exclusively at home. We have done a comparison to our current ICE car which at the time (before the extreme cost) was granting us about 26mpg.

So we did a fun little test.

After driving 80 miles, our Spark EV costs us about $2 in electricity to recharge.
After driving 80 miles in our ICE car, it cost us $7.50 to refuel.

So how does the EVGo public station price compare?
 
Chris101 said:
So has anyone done the math on what the EVGo charging prices translate to in comparison to traditional MPG cost?

Living in Illinois and a north Chicago suburb, public EV spots are few and far between but we charge exclusively at home. We have done a comparison to our current ICE car which at the time (before the extreme cost) was granting us about 26mpg.

So we did a fun little test.

After driving 80 miles, our Spark EV costs us about $2 in electricity to recharge.
After driving 80 miles in our ICE car, it cost us $7.50 to refuel.

So how does the EVGo public station price compare?

Every Friday I drive on the freeway from my home in Manteca, CA to Oakland, CA. The round trip mileage is 134 miles and I stop at an EVgo DCFC station in Pleasanton, CA going and at another EVgo DCFC station in Livermore, CA returning. The weather yesterday was in the low 50s in the afternoon when I left and in the low to mid 40s in the late evening when I returned. I used 8.64 kWh [17 minutes / $1.70] from home to the EVgo station in Pleasanton and 12.3 kWh [18 minutes / $1.80] from Pleasanton to my destination and back to the EVgo station in Livermore. I charged to 95% at both locations.

My current EVgo subscription [ $14.95 / mo + $0.10 per kwh] extends through May 2020 at which time it will go up to $19.95 / mo + $0.20 per kWh. Without going through all of the math, here are my cost estimates based on 4 trips [8 charging sessions] per month @ 4.5 mi / kWh [winter]:

Current EVgo subscription: $0.077 per mile or $0.35 per kWh
New EVgo subscription: $0.127 per mile or $0.57 per kWh.
My electric charging cost at home, including charging losses, is $0.053 per mile or $0.24 per kWh.

You reported you drove the ICE 80 miles at a cost of $7.50. This equals $0.094 per mile.

My EVgo subscription is my ticket to venturing out beyond the single-charge range of my Spark EV. I call it "travel insurance". I almost exclusively use EVgo but I also have accounts with ChargePoint and Greenlots.
 
^ thanks for that breakdown. What you are showing me is as a 'grandfathered' EVGo subscriber, you are still getting better than my ICE but if I had the same options available to me here in Illinois, I'd be paying more than our ICE car (gas was $2.55 a gallon when I did that test and now its $2.68 a gallon-- obviously the gasoline vs. electric is a little harder to nail down on exact cost given the ever-fluctuating gas prices!)

Of course none of this factors in all the other expenses involved with an ICE car but right now (in this state anyway) its just not feasible to venture more than 40 miles away 1-way on a NICE day when I don't have to use A/C or heat. For now the Spark EV is more than adequate for our needs with the ICE there for longer distances (like when my husband had to do a 330+ mile trip to the middle-of-nowhere Wisconsin that has even LESS 'charging' stations available to the public.
 
Chris101 said:
^ thanks for that breakdown. What you are showing me is as a 'grandfathered' EVGo subscriber, you are still getting better than my ICE but if I had the same options available to me here in Illinois, I'd be paying more than our ICE car (gas was $2.55 a gallon when I did that test and now its $2.68 a gallon-- obviously the gasoline vs. electric is a little harder to nail down on exact cost given the ever-fluctuating gas prices!)

Of course none of this factors in all the other expenses involved with an ICE car but right now (in this state anyway) its just not feasible to venture more than 40 miles away 1-way on a NICE day when I don't have to use A/C or heat. For now the Spark EV is more than adequate for our needs with the ICE there for longer distances (like when my husband had to do a 330+ mile trip to the middle-of-nowhere Wisconsin that has even LESS 'charging' stations available to the public.

The cost of regular gas at a Chevron station in my area is currently $3.25 per gallon. I never intended my Spark EV to be a "long distance" vehicle". My wife and I only drive about 15000 miles total per year and seldom drive very far from home. Almost all round trips are within the 1-charge range of our Spark EV and that includes using the heater or AC as needed. If I need to drive to Los Angeles, I can either drive my pickup truck or rent a car. So far, after almost 3 years, it is working as planned. Having memberships with EVgo and ChargePoint has allowed us to venture out to South Lake Tahoe, down to Fresno and back, and all over the Bay Area. This summer we plan to make a run to Reno, NV now that necessary EVgo stations are located along HWY I-80. Getting to South Lake Tahoe is now even easier too.

I should add that the cost numbers I provided are based on my worst-case driving efficiency of 4.5 miles per kWh. This is due to having another person in the car, driving at freeway speeds, occasionally using the heater due to outside temperatures of 45- 50 deg F and driving over two steep grades and back. Under optimum driving conditions - around town and 70 deg. F temp, I typically see 6.5 mi / kWh or higher.
 
and right now in winter we are seeing 3.7 per kWh ...so I'm looking forward to seeing improvements in summer!
 
Chris101 said:
and right now in winter we are seeing 3.7 per kWh ...so I'm looking forward to seeing improvements in summer!

Yes. My data shows my GOM full-charge range for my 2015 Spark EV was about 95 miles in the summer and dropped to 78 miles in the winter. The same was true for my 2014 Spark EV. I estimate your full-charge GOM range would be around 60-65 miles. This winter my full-charge GOM reading for my 2015 Spark EV has been running around 72-75 mi. The car has 25K miles on the ODO.
 
MrDRMorgan said:
Chris101 said:
So has anyone done the math on what the EVGo charging prices translate to in comparison to traditional MPG cost?

Living in Illinois and a north Chicago suburb, public EV spots are few and far between but we charge exclusively at home. We have done a comparison to our current ICE car which at the time (before the extreme cost) was granting us about 26mpg.

So we did a fun little test.

After driving 80 miles, our Spark EV costs us about $2 in electricity to recharge.
After driving 80 miles in our ICE car, it cost us $7.50 to refuel.

So how does the EVGo public station price compare?

Every Friday I drive on the freeway from my home in Manteca, CA to Oakland, CA. The round trip mileage is 134 miles and I stop at an EVgo DCFC station in Pleasanton, CA going and at another EVgo DCFC station in Livermore, CA returning. The weather yesterday was in the low 50s in the afternoon when I left and in the low to mid 40s in the late evening when I returned. I used 8.64 kWh [17 minutes / $1.70] from home to the EVgo station in Pleasanton and 12.3 kWh [18 minutes / $1.80] from Pleasanton to my destination and back to the EVgo station in Livermore. I charged to 95% at both locations.

My current EVgo subscription [ $14.95 / mo + $0.10 per kwh] extends through May 2020 at which time it will go up to $19.95 / mo + $0.20 per kWh. Without going through all of the math, here are my cost estimates based on 4 trips [8 charging sessions] per month @ 4.5 mi / kWh [winter]:

Current EVgo subscription: $0.077 per mile or $0.35 per kWh
New EVgo subscription: $0.127 per mile or $0.57 per kWh.
My electric charging cost at home, including charging losses, is $0.053 per mile or $0.24 per kWh.

You reported you drove the ICE 80 miles at a cost of $7.50. This equals $0.094 per mile.

My EVgo subscription is my ticket to venturing out beyond the single-charge range of my Spark EV. I call it "travel insurance". I almost exclusively use EVgo but I also have accounts with ChargePoint and Greenlots.

Isn't the EVgo pricing $0.10/minute, and not per kWh? Yes, at 125A/400V (50 kW) stations the price can be pretty close, but still a little more expensive than per kWh.
 
Doh! Pay attention Sparky! Looking at the numbers you provided :

8.64 kWh [17 minutes / $1.70] ... in Pleasanton and 12.3 kWh [18 minutes / $1.80] ... in Livermore.

the charge is obviously per minute.

Once one has an (legacy) EVgo On-The-Go plan, it's generally cheaper to charge at one of their DCFC stations than at home (unless you have solar, or very cheap night-time rates).

MY Spark EV charges at full bore (50 kW) until about 75% SoC (State of Charge), when it starts slowing down. So anytime you are in Tracy or Salida and have less than (say) 50% SoC, a quick top-up (10-ish mins, 8-ish kWh) will only cost you about 12-13 cents per kWh. (Unless it is cold, under 50-ish, or hot, over 90-ish.)

Their L2 stations are $1/hr (probably, for you) so they would be a lot more expensive ($1/3.3 kW= 30.3/kWh)

Edit: A way to make a little cash is to offer a 30-min charge to somebody for $7 - no per-minute charge. That's cheaper than the EVgo rate of $14.95. Send your kid out to the local EVgo station to hang out. (Obviously, I am kidding.)
 
SparkE said:
MrDRMorgan said:
Chris101 said:
So has anyone done the math on what the EVGo charging prices translate to in comparison to traditional MPG cost?

Living in Illinois and a north Chicago suburb, public EV spots are few and far between but we charge exclusively at home. We have done a comparison to our current ICE car which at the time (before the extreme cost) was granting us about 26mpg.

So we did a fun little test.

After driving 80 miles, our Spark EV costs us about $2 in electricity to recharge.
After driving 80 miles in our ICE car, it cost us $7.50 to refuel.

So how does the EVGo public station price compare?

Every Friday I drive on the freeway from my home in Manteca, CA to Oakland, CA. The round trip mileage is 134 miles and I stop at an EVgo DCFC station in Pleasanton, CA going and at another EVgo DCFC station in Livermore, CA returning. The weather yesterday was in the low 50s in the afternoon when I left and in the low to mid 40s in the late evening when I returned. I used 8.64 kWh [17 minutes / $1.70] from home to the EVgo station in Pleasanton and 12.3 kWh [18 minutes / $1.80] from Pleasanton to my destination and back to the EVgo station in Livermore. I charged to 95% at both locations.

My current EVgo subscription [ $14.95 / mo + $0.10 per kwh] extends through May 2020 at which time it will go up to $19.95 / mo + $0.20 per kWh. Without going through all of the math, here are my cost estimates based on 4 trips [8 charging sessions] per month @ 4.5 mi / kWh [winter]:

Current EVgo subscription: $0.077 per mile or $0.35 per kWh
New EVgo subscription: $0.127 per mile or $0.57 per kWh.
My electric charging cost at home, including charging losses, is $0.053 per mile or $0.24 per kWh.

You reported you drove the ICE 80 miles at a cost of $7.50. This equals $0.094 per mile.

My EVgo subscription is my ticket to venturing out beyond the single-charge range of my Spark EV. I call it "travel insurance". I almost exclusively use EVgo but I also have accounts with ChargePoint and Greenlots.

Isn't the EVgo pricing $0.10/minute, and not per kWh? Yes, at 125A/400V (50 kW) stations the price can be pretty close, but still a little more expensive than per kWh.
 
SparkE said:
Doh! Pay attention Sparky! Looking at the numbers you provided :

8.64 kWh [17 minutes / $1.70] ... in Pleasanton and 12.3 kWh [18 minutes / $1.80] ... in Livermore.

the charge is obviously per minute.

Once one has an (legacy) EVgo On-The-Go plan, it's generally cheaper to charge at one of their DCFC stations than at home (unless you have solar, or very cheap night-time rates).

MY Spark EV charges at full bore (50 kW) until about 75% SoC (State of Charge), when it starts slowing down. So anytime you are in Tracy or Salida and have less than (say) 50% SoC, a quick top-up (10-ish mins, 8-ish kWh) will only cost you about 12-13 cents per kWh. (Unless it is cold, under 50-ish, or hot, over 90-ish.)

Their L2 stations are $1/hr (probably, for you) so they would be a lot more expensive ($1/3.3 kW= 30.3/kWh)

Edit: A way to make a little cash is to offer a 30-min charge to somebody for $7 - no per-minute charge. That's cheaper than the EVgo rate of $14.95. Send your kid out to the local EVgo station to hang out. (Obviously, I am kidding.)

OK. So I can't type or proof read worth beans. Yes, the EVgo cost is $0.10 per minute and not per kWh. Otherwise, my numbers are accurate.

I have what you call the legacy EVgo On-The-Go plan which costs me $14.95 per month plus $0.10 per minute of charging. The ABB EVgo DCFC charger in Livermore is a 50 kw station. The Drive-the-Arc EVgo charger in Pleasanton is a 40kw station [usually runs 38-39 kw]. The Drive-The-ARC charger's display shows the charge voltage and current, the battery charge percentage, and the elapsed charging time. Typically, I charge from ~35% to 95% at both locations so the extra time charging from 80% to 95% makes my cost per kWh a bit higher. Many times, at the Salida EVgo DCFC, I have timed the 20% to 80% charging rate and found it to be about 1.5 minutes per kWh. That would give me a cost of $0.15 per kWh to which I would have to add a portion of the monthly subscription rate based on the number of EVgo kWhs I used during the month.

The Drive-the-Arc EVgo charger in Pleasanton clearly shows the charging voltage and current. The power being delivered remain steadys until 80% and then starts to taper off. At approximately 90% the charge voltage is still 400 volts but the current has dropped to 50 amps [20 kw].

The closest EVgo DCFC stations near my home are in Salaida [1] and Modesto at the Vintage Fair Mall [2]. Both are about 10 miles from my home. Neither of these locations has an EVgo L2 EVSE. We only have one L2 EVSE [free] in town and it is located in the Bass Pro Shop parking lot where the Tesla chargers are located. The next nearest EVgo DCFC is in Tracy, 18 miles from my home.

Most of my charging is done at home using an L2 EVSE in my garage, and yes, I have solar on my home. Without my EV charging needs, my solar produces a surplus of ~500 kWh each year including heating and AC needs. Charging my EVs consumes the 500 kWh surplus plus an additional 2200 kWh per year. The remainder of my annual EV charging needs is covered by my EVgo membership.

I am on the PG&E E1 rate schedule and my T1 cost per kWh is $0.20. I have two years of hourly consumption data which I have used to compare the E1 rate schedule [not a time-or-use schedule] with PG&E's EV rate schedule - a time of use schedule - and, on an annual basis, the E1 rate schedule is the least expensve rate plan for my home and EV charging needs.
 
MrDRMorgan said:
OK. So I can't type or proof read worth beans. Yes, the EVgo cost is $0.10 per minute and not per kWh. Otherwise, my numbers are accurate.

I hope you didn't get the impression I was criticizing you - I was poking fun at myself : "Doh! Pay attention Sparky!" The answer to the question I asked was already in your post - I just had to pay attention.

When paying by the minute, the price paid will vary (obviously), based both/possibly on SoC and temperature of the batteries. A couple of days ago I jumped in my Spark at 8:30 a.m. and the temp was in the low/mid 40s (temp had gotten down to about 38 the night before). I drove about a mile to a DCFC and was only able to charge at about 19 kW at first, because the battery pack was so cold. When you need electrons, you need electrons and happily pay for them (it's better than the alternative). But I much prefer paying by the kWh instead of by charging time, when the choice is there (multiple choices for charge location).

A (proposed, AND already approved) map of soon-to-be-installed DCFCs in California can be found here : https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1VEJLK0-wcAhWV8Q0MirTLULd5mg&ll=37.606641755092305%2C-120.70727677499997&z=9

("soon" is "to be determined", since they were approved in 2016! But apparently some ARE being installed now.)

There will be a 2-plug ChargePoint DCFC in Tracy (about a mile from the EVgo spot) and a 2-plug EV Connect DCFC in Manteca (near 120/99 junction) at some point "soon" - supposedly. I would *hope* that the ChargePoint units would be either their "Express 200" (50 kW max) or "Express 250" (62 kW max) units.

Edit: Doh! Dueling posts! You were typing at the same time I was! ;)
 
SparkE said:
MrDRMorgan said:
OK. So I can't type or proof read worth beans. Yes, the EVgo cost is $0.10 per minute and not per kWh. Otherwise, my numbers are accurate.

I hope you didn't get the impression I was criticizing you - I was poking fun at myself : "Doh! Pay attention Sparky!" The answer to the question I asked was already in your post - I just had to pay attention.

When paying by the minute, the price paid will vary (obviously), based both/possibly on SoC and temperature of the batteries. A couple of days ago I jumped in my Spark at 8:30 a.m. and the temp was in the low/mid 40s (temp had gotten down to about 38 the night before). I drove about a mile to a DCFC and was only able to charge at about 19 kW at first, because the battery pack was so cold. When you need electrons, you need electrons and happily pay for them (it's better than the alternative). But I much prefer paying by the kWh instead of by charging time, when the choice is there (multiple choices for charge location).

A (proposed, AND already approved) map of soon-to-be-installed DCFCs in California can be found here : https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1VEJLK0-wcAhWV8Q0MirTLULd5mg&ll=37.606641755092305%2C-120.70727677499997&z=9

("soon" is "to be determined", since they were approved in 2016! But apparently some ARE being installed now.)

There will be a 2-plug ChargePoint DCFC in Tracy (about a mile from the EVgo spot) and at some point "soon" - supposedly. I would *hope* that the ChargePoint units would be either their "Express 200" (50 kW max) or "Express 250" (62 kW max) units.

Edit: Doh! Dueling posts! You were typing at the same time I was! ;)

No offense taken! I really can't type very well and, even though I read and reread things I type, I still miss errors.

"a 2-plug EV Connect DCFC in Manteca (near 120/99 junction)" - Now that is something to look forward to. I suspect it might be installed in the Walmart parking lot or in the Bass Pro Shop parking lot. The number of Tesla chargers in the Bass Pro Shop parking lot were recently increased from 8 to 20! I CAN"T WAIT! I definitely will use an EVgo or ChargePoint DCFC and wear out my RFID cards in the process. I think in Manteca alone, there are about 10 to 15 Spark EVs plus a number of Leafs.
 
MrDRMorgan said:
The Drive-the-Arc EVgo charger in Pleasanton clearly shows the charging voltage and current. The power being delivered remain steadys until 80% and then starts to taper off. At approximately 90% the charge voltage is still 400 volts but the current has dropped to 50 amps [20 kw].

You probably already know this, but maybe others don't. The charging rate (in kW) at a DCFC is often a curve (or multiple curves, separated by flat lines). When starting at a low SoC, the DCFC is putting out max amps and the voltage is rising. Once max Voltage is reached both max amps and volts are pulled until pulling max amps would cause the battery pack voltage to go past its (the car-determined) max. At that point the VEHICLE starts pulling lower and lower amps (which is why the kW rate drops, as rate is V * A).

The above is for non- temperature-limited charging. If the battery temp is too low or too high, the car will slow the charge rate to below what the theoretical max would be.

My Spark pulls 44-48 kW from around around 30% SoC up until about 80% as well - then the charging steps down, reaching 20-ish kW quickly, by around 90% - providing that the temp is between 55-75F. (I've never really paid too much attention to the low-end of when the car reaches full charging capacity of 44-48 kW.) I once had to add electrons when it was 106F outside : charge rate into battery was 12 kW, with battery cooling system running full blast!! After that, I now drive the ICE on longer trips requiring charging when it is over 90F (both to preserve battery life and to avoid sitting in full sun when temps are over 100F).
 
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