DC fast charging: J1772 CCS vs CHAdeMO vs Supercharger, etc.

TonyWilliams said:

Pawl said:

TonyWilliams said:

The "corridor" charging locations (not dealers) will be dual CHAdeMO / CCS-Combo1 made by Efacec.

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Corridor aside, it will be nice if some of the thousands of CHAdeMO-only stations reciprocate the gesture by adding CCS-Combo.

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Well, that's an interesting thought. I happen to own a CHAdeMO station, which was operational before the CCS crowd was a "thing".

So, what do you recommend I do? if your response includes spending money, just let me know where that comes from. Also, should yet another "standard" come along, as it absolutely will, please indicate what should be done then.

We charge 15 cents per minute for service.

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This is pretty much exactly what eVgo has been doing with their already existing Freedom stations, adding a dual standard charger to the existing CHAdeMO-only one. They apparently have the capital to do so (and are required to by the terms of the settlement). From this point out, I think we'll see only dual-standard installed ab initio, just adding more dual chargers as needed. At last, as some of us have been saying for a couple years now, the companies are realizing that 'a rising tide lifts all boats.' Kia was first, but VW and BMW have the financial wherewithal to do this on a much larger scale.

gra said:

This is pretty much exactly what eVgo has been doing with their already existing Freedom stations, adding a dual standard charger to the existing CHAdeMO-only one. They apparently have the capital to do so (and are required to by the terms of the settlement). From this point out, I think we'll see only dual-standard installed ab initio, just adding more dual chargers as needed. At last, as some of us have been saying for a couple years now, the companies are realizing that 'a rising tide lifts all boats.' Kia was first, but VW and BMW have the financial wherewithal to do this on a much larger scale.

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They (VW / BMW) announced 100 total stations. Nissan then announced 1000 stations, and to my knowledge, not very many of that additional 1000 from Nissan will lift any boat except the CHAdeMO one.

TonyWilliams said:

gra said:

This is pretty much exactly what eVgo has been doing with their already existing Freedom stations, adding a dual standard charger to the existing CHAdeMO-only one. They apparently have the capital to do so (and are required to by the terms of the settlement). From this point out, I think we'll see only dual-standard installed ab initio, just adding more dual chargers as needed. At last, as some of us have been saying for a couple years now, the companies are realizing that 'a rising tide lifts all boats.' Kia was first, but VW and BMW have the financial wherewithal to do this on a much larger scale.

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They (VW / BMW) announced 100 total stations. Nissan then announced 1000 stations, and to my knowledge, not very many of that additional 1000 from Nissan will lift any boat except the CHAdeMO one.

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You must have missed some of the details, Tony. Here's what Brendan Jones (Nissan's Director of EV Sales and Infrastructure Deployment) said, per the NYT:

Mr. Jones also said the new chargers would be compatible with most electric vehicles.

There are two main types of charging connectors for electric vehicles from the major automakers — Tesla has its own — and Mr. Jones said some of Nissan’s 800 chargers around the country already had one of each type. The newly planned stations will, too. BMW said last week it also would feature dual chargers.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/27/business/nissan-plans-1000-new-stations-to-quickly-charge-electric-cars.html?_r=0

Seems pretty unambiguous to me.

Thanks. I had heard that was the planned from Nissan from some news report, and I just assumed that they screwed it up.

Maybe charger wars are over?

TonyWilliams said:

Thanks. I had heard that was the planned from Nissan from some news report, and I just assumed that they screwed it up.

Maybe charger wars are over?

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Seems so, but we'll have to see how well they follow through.

I've read stories about lines forming for CHAdeMO chargers, and I think dual standard chargers are the best way to decide which is more relevant over the next few years.

If every station can use both protocols, has two cords, and can be used by two cars at the same time the market will naturally decide which standard is more accepted. If the CHAdeMO line is 5 Leafs long and the CCS line is empty too times we will see owners and operators replacing CCS cords with CHAdeMO cords and visa versa.

Anyone that thinks two standards are a waste of engineering should just wait to let Dual-Standard DC-FCs be the grand experiment.

One mistake no one corrected is not giving buyers a lifetime buy in option. The price of electricity is so cheap compared to the infrastructure build out costs. Letting users be a source of capital is a brilliant move on Tesla's part.

Any business that promised 500 50-100kW and 2,500 25kW DC charging points through out California with a $5,000-10,000 lifetime buy in would have no problem getting subscribers.

We added more CHAdeMO in the world in 56 days than all the SAE-CCS-Combo1 equipment ever installed:

124 new CHAdeMO chargers added in USA between 9 Jan 2015 and 6 March 2015:

Adding about 2-3 per day in the USA, and 8 per day worldwide !!!

Japan -- now 2819, was 2819 (obviously not updated)
Europe - now 1659, was 1327
USA ---- now 934, was 810
Others - now 55, was 54

5467 Worldwide (6 March 2015)
5010 Worldwide (9 January 2015)

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Tesla Supercharger - 396 stations worldwide with
396 Supercharger stations with 2,167 Supercharger charge points, each with 2-14 stalls at each station, growing fast

6 March 2015 - Total USA:
Stations - 171
Charge points - 1139

What does this have to do with the Spark EV? I don't think you get it, Tony—when you post something like this it comes off as mean-spirited, not celebratory. Like a child who says "Told ya so, told ya so."

If you're copy-posting to all the forums you contribute to, why not restrict it to those forums that are about vehicles using the CHAdeMO plug?

I could say something similar to "whoopdifreakin-do," but I won't.

TonyWilliams said:

We added more CHAdeMO in the world in 56 days than all the SAE-CCS-Combo1 equipment ever installed:

124 new CHAdeMO chargers added in USA between 9 Jan 2015 and 6 March 2015:

Adding about 2-3 per day in the USA, and 8 per day worldwide !!!

Japan -- now 2819, was 2819 (obviously not updated)
Europe - now 1659, was 1327
USA ---- now 934, was 810
Others - now 55, was 54

5467 Worldwide (6 March 2015)
5010 Worldwide (9 January 2015)

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Tesla Supercharger - 396 stations worldwide with
396 Supercharger stations with 2,167 Supercharger charge points, each with 2-14 stalls at each station, growing fast

6 March 2015 - Total USA:
Stations - 171
Charge points - 1139

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Charger dominance is more about getting to 100,000 charging points. No one cares which charging standard is the first with a DC-FC near them. DC-FCs are supposed to completely detach EVs from their home base. Until they are almost totally ubiquitous people won't feel that way about their vehicles. The Supercharger network is getting very close because the Model S has such great range, but the Model 3 will require more saturation to create that same experience of freedom.

Pawl said:

What does this have to do with the Spark EV? I don't think you get it, Tony—when you post something like this it comes off as mean-spirited, not celebratory. Like a child who says "Told ya so, told ya so."

If you're copy-posting to all the forums you contribute to, why not restrict it to those forums that are about vehicles using the CHAdeMO plug?

I could say something similar to "whoopdifreakin-do," but I won't.

TonyWilliams said:

We added more CHAdeMO in the world in 56 days than all the SAE-CCS-Combo1 equipment ever installed:

124 new CHAdeMO chargers added in USA between 9 Jan 2015 and 6 March 2015:

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Yes, I'm used to the attack method on this forum. I sincerely hope you don't take it to the level of others (who are no longer participants here).

If you read the title to the thread, you'll find that it is NOT just about the Spark EV. It's about all the DC charging standards in the USA. Perhaps you could be a contributor instead of a complainer, and post additional info about the Spark EV specific charge protocol?

If you wish to not read my posts (which I highly encourage, as opposed to wasted bandwidth complaining), please use the block user feature found under "Uner Control Panel" (upper right hand side) and "Manage Friends and Foes".

I've revised this post, since I was a bit too negative and what I wrote was not as constructive as it should have been.

I will as you suggest Tony, bypass this thread in the future. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone when I question the value to Spark EV owners of saying they're part of a "CCS crowd thing." Fact is, there are a couple of non-Spark EV owners on this forum who simply enjoy bashing the CCS. Again, I know I'm not imagining this. And I did ask if someone could tell me how hearing over and over how few DC Combo charging stations there are and how few there are being installed compared to... I just don't see the value. I would if this were a forum for prospective Spark EV buyers, in which case these comparisons would be equivalent to fair warnings, "You will not for the foreseeable future have it as easy fast-charging the Spark, should you decide to buy one." (Okay, I was a prospective buyer on this forum before I went ahead and got one.)

I know, you're going to say that Frankenplug is simple a term of endearment.

Lastly, I'd say, although a newcomer to the world of EVs, I can see clearly that you, Tony, are very, very knowledgeable about the subject. Nor have I any reason to doubt that the products you sell are anything but top notch. I'll not say any more on this subject, though I will probably have many, many more questions to ask of other owners.

This wasn't really an apology, sorry. (There, that was one.) But I should have said it in a more tactful manner.

Now, to read your post below.

EDIT: This was a post in response to the original post made by Pawl above. Thankfully, he has done the right thing and edited it to something more appropriate for this forum.

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Honestly, you came to a thread about "DC fast charging: J1772 CCS vs CHAdeMO vs Supercharger, etc.", and you're complaining that I've posted about that? Why would you just not read something that you have no interest in?

Again, why not participate, instead of this predicable trolling of the thread? There must be something fantastic that YOU can say about CCS (or Tesla Superchargers or G/BT, or Chameleon, etc), that will make you happy? Did you know that BMW and VW are going to install 100 of stations, some with CCS and some with CCS combined with CHAdeMO? NRG/eVgo will install 200 over 4 years? Tesla is now over 2000 installed charge stations!!! There's lots you COULD add to the thread instead of the direction that you're taking, which appears to just attack.

Your berating isn't helping the forum in general, and this thread in particular, and clearly, YOUR POST above is a DIRECT ATTACK against me. That is against the terms and conditions of your use of this forum.

I haven't attacked you in any way... heck, I don't know that I've even seen very many posts from you. I'll report your post above, however, and we'll take the same path with you as the others who have pursued your methods of getting attention for yourself.

It's time to "shape up" or "ship out". Good luck.

Pawl said:

... And I did ask if someone could tell me how hearing over and over how few DC Combo charging stations there are and how few there are being installed compared to... I just don't see the value. I would if this were a forum for prospective Spark EV buyers, in which case these comparisons would be equivalent to fair warnings, "You will not for the foreseeable future have it as easy fast-charging the Spark, should you decide to buy one." (Okay, I was a prospective buyer on this forum before I went ahead and got one.)

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You did great. Thanks for not pulling this into the cesspool that it has been in the past.

Plus, you answered your own question. YOU don't see the value in learning about CCS, but prospective buyers do, and whether you want to believe is or not, THEY READ THIS FORUM !!!

Thanks for "shaping up"!

TonyWilliams said:

Thanks for "shaping up"!

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I found your original "shape up or ship out" comment to be offensive—no less so, your appreciation that I've now somehow done right [by you]. I stand by my complaint to you and to the forum owners: you are not always as helpful to Spark EV owners, prospective or current, as you tell yourself. I'm willing to compliment you on your level of knowledge, Tony, and your dedication to the subject, but I am not too timid to call you out on some things, as others have done. I've not yet been banned from this forum, and I have contributed, and will continue to do so.

I neither said nor suggested that I don't see "the value in learning about CCS." I do believe that not all, but most forum readers find anti-CCS bias unhelpful. I find it annoying, myself, but that's my opinion.

I neither said nor suggested that this forum is not read. Can't figure how you read that into my post.

Some of us wonder if you feel you're doing a public service by pointing out again and again how few CCS charing options there are [at this point in time]? Are you warning prospective buyers? Do you feel they need warning, that they are essentially naive otherwise? If you were not a CHAdeMO FC station owner, and you owned a Spark EV, I think your "updates" about CCS would feel less biased—though perhaps as a result, more baffling.

I'll admit my bias—I actually own a Spark EV.

Pawl said:

Some of us wonder if you feel you're doing a public service by pointing out again and again how few CCS charing options there are [at this point in time]? Are you warning prospective buyers? Do you feel they need warning, that they are essentially naive otherwise?

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Do they "need" a warning? Maybe not... Should they be educated on the fact there are 3 incompatible DC FC standards in the US and which ones their vehicle will be compatible with, if any, along w/where the stations are? Absolutely yes.

We've already had documented cases of dealers either due to a lie, ignorance or misinformation mislead a Spark EV buyer on DC FC standards: http://mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5477#p5477. I recall seeing it elsewhere as well, not just limited to the Spark EV (BMW i3, IIRC).

People who aren't EV enthusiasts may not have any idea. See http://mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4689#p4689, for example.

There is http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15821.

http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4043 knows about the different standards, but obviously the OP there needed more information.

If you hang out on the BMW i3 Facebook group, rather frequently, although admittedly more earlier in its US lifecycle, there were PLENTY of i3 folks who were confused about CHAdeMO vs. SAE Combo (Combo1 and 2) vs. Tesla Supercharger.

I can guarantee you there is a population of potential EV buyers/lessees (not just those considering the Spark EV) who do not know about the 3 DC FC standards in the US, their compatible vehicles, the locations/prevalence of DC FCs of the 3 standards and what adapters are/aren't available. And, some of those already own/lease an EV!

I can attest to this. When I was first purchasing my Spark EV I wasn't totally aware of the different standards. My school had just installed two Chademo stations on campus. While at George Chevy I told Jeffrey how I was excited that I'd be able to use them. Luckily he educated me about the various standards and told me how to use plugshare. Since he also has leased a Spark EV he had all his bases covered. I still ended up getting the DCFC port but I at least knew what I was getting into.

Well said, cwerdna and Chaconzies...thanks. I can't dispute the fact that forewarned is forearmed. I'm the sort that does my due diligence, then decides with as much knowledge as I've gathered (I knew full well how few Combo FC stations were currently set up, for example). Others don't do the homework, so you do well to edify where you can. There's a best way of doing this—as you both have shown—with an unbiased tone. Am I simply reading into certain posts a less balanced voice? Perhaps. Anyway, the landscape of ev charging facilities is growing by leaps and bounds these days. Nothing will look the same in months and years to come...I think everyone agrees on that.

On another note, has anyone done a study on DCQCs to corresponding ev number?
—number of CHAdeMO to Leaf, Rav4, etc;
—number of Superchargers to Tesla;
—number of CCS to number of Spark EV, BMW i3, etc.)

Pawl said:

On another note, has anyone done a study on DCQCs to corresponding ev number?
—number of CHAdeMO to Leaf, Rav4, etc;
—number of Superchargers to Tesla;
—number of CCS to number of Spark EV, BMW i3, etc.)

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Here's the "scorecard" of sales:

http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/


You can update this data that I post over and over:


1) CHAdeMO - 5467 Worldwide (6 March 2015)

124 new CHAdeMO chargers added in USA between 9 Jan 2015 and 6 March 2015:

Adding about 2-3 per day in the USA, and 8 per day worldwide !!!

Japan -- now 2819, was 2819 (obviously not updated)
Europe - now 1659, was 1327
USA ---- now 934, was 810
Others - now 55, was 54

5467 Worldwide (6 March 2015)
5010 Worldwide (9 January 2015)

http://www.chademo.com
up to 100kW eventually, currently limited to 62.5kW

The only DC protocol that uses the same plug worldwide

Nissan announced (Dec 2014) that they would increase USA to over 1000 stations by mid-2015, and 6000 total in Japan.

EVs compatible with CHAdeMO include:

*Nissan LEAF - over 60,000 in the USA and over 140,000 worldwide
*Nissan e-NV200 (coming 2015)
*Citroen C-Zero - not sold in USA
*Citroën Berlingo - not sold in USA
*Honda hydrogen car (used for Vehicle to Home/Grid only)
*Mitsubishi i-MiEV - over 30,000 worldwide with its variants C-Zero & iON
*Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV (coming 2015)
*Mitsubishi Fuso Canter truck
*Peugeot iON - not sold in USA
*Peugeot Partner - not sold in USA
*Kia Soul EV (coming Oct 2014)
*ZERO motorcycles
*Tesla except Roadster with Tesla supplied adaptor
*Toyota Mirai hydrogen car (used for Vehicle to Home/Grid only)
*Toyota RAV4 EV with "JdeMO" from Quick Charge Power

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2) GB/T - China only, not offered in USA

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3) SAE CCS Combo1, or "J1772 DC" - approximately 50 in the USA (and worldwide) as of Dec 2014
http://standards.sae.org/j1772_201210/
up to 100kW eventually, probably limited to 25-50kW
Uses a different plug in Europe (Menekkes CCS Combo2) than the plug used in USA

EVs compatible include:

*GM Spark EV - about 1000 cars (adding about 50 per month in two CARB-ZEV states)
*BMW i3 - 3000 cars sold in USA through 1 Oct 2014
*VW eGolf (1 sold Oct 31, 2014)

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4) Menekkes CCS Combo2, Europe only, not offered in the USA

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5) Supercharger - 396 stations worldwide with
396 Supercharger stations with 2,167 Supercharger charge points, each with 2-14 stalls at each station, growing fast

6 March 2015 - Total USA:
Stations - 171
Charge points - 1139

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
up to 135kW, cars currently limited to 120kW

Uses a different plug in Europe than the one used in North America and Japan

EVs compatible with Supercharger include:

*Tesla only, except Roadster - 55,000 worldwide

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6) Chameleon - Renault cars only, mostly France, and throughout Europe, not offered in USA

Here's another way of looking at the numbers, the ratio of charge points to corresponding vehicles.

Tony's numbers are up to date and accurate for the CHAdeMO charge points (5467!!), but less so for overall vehicles, which increase by the day. If we could fill in the blanks—numbers of additional CHAdeMO vehicles, like the other Nissans, Hondas, Citroens, Peugeots, Toyotas—the number and ration would change (total number of vehicles are obviously many more than the 230,000 listed).

Tony's figures for the CCS are, unfortunately, less accurate/up to date. For example, one should correctly assume there've been additional CCS stations built in the past 3 months (even if only 10 have been added [BMW dealer installs from Bosch, for example?], the ratio changes from 1:80 to 1:66)

CHAdeMO: 5467 charge points to >230,000 vehicles — 1:>42 (1 charge point for every >42 vehicles)
CCS: 50(?) charge points to 4001(?) — >1:80 (>1 charge point for every 80 vehicles—assuming more CCS charge points have been installed in the past 3 months, the ratio will be closer to the CHAdeMO's.)

This shows that regardless of the higher numbers of CHAdeMO vehicles/stations, the ratio of stations to corresponding vehicles is really not so wildly different—if we knew the numbers of all CHAdeMO vehicles and the number of CCS stations, it might even be close to equal. (Apologies to Supercharger...I couldn't figure what the numbers...someone else could figure out the ratio if interested.) How the ratio will shift over time, who's to say, but some who are considering buying a CCS equipped ev might benefit from this very rough accounting.

1) CHAdeMO - 5467 worldwide (updated to March 2015)

EVs compatible include: at LEAST 230,000 (many models' quantities not included in total {see below])
*Nissan LEAF - over 60,000 in the USA and over 140,000 worldwide
*Nissan e-NV200 (how many ?)
*Citroen C-Zero (how many ?)
*Citroën Berlingo (how many ?)
*Honda hydrogen car (used for Vehicle to Home/Grid only) (how many ?)
*Mitsubishi i-MiEV - over 30,000 worldwide
*Mitsubishi Fuso Canter truck - (how many ?)
*Peugeot iON - (how many ?)
*Peugeot Partner - (how many ?)
*Kia Soul EV - (how many ?)
*Tesla except Roadster with Tesla supplied adaptor - (how many ?)
*Toyota Mirai hydrogen car (used for Vehicle to Home/Grid only) - (how many ?)
*Toyota RAV4 EV with "JdeMO" from Quick Charge Power - (how many ?)

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2) SAE CCS Combo1, or "J1772 DC" - approximately 50 in the USA (and worldwide) as of Dec 2014 - (not updated to March 2015)

EVs compatible include:
*GM Spark EV - about 1000 cars (adding about 50 per month in two CARB-ZEV states) (approximate)
*BMW i3 - 3000 cars sold in USA through 1 Oct 2014 (not updated to March 2015)
*VW eGolf (1 sold Oct 31, 2014) (not updated to March 2015)

As of now, Plugshare: http://www.plugshare.com/ is showing 145 CCS-1 in North America, 11 of which are in Canada. California has 74, concentrated in the SF Bay, L.A. , and San Diego areas plus a couple along the Bay-Sacramento I-80 corridor, and two in the San Joaquin Valley. Clusters have recently popped up in both Indianapolis and Kansas City, and the I-85 corridor between Atlanta and Richmond is starting to fill in, albeit it's still too sparse for ~80 mile BEVs. I-95 hasn't really gotten going yet, but will once VW/BMW kick into gear, and Florida from I-4 north (Tampa) is starting to look pretty good.

I haven't updated this topic: http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3643

for about 6 weeks, so will do that now.