HID Option?

So what's the verdict? Is it worth getting LED replacement bulbs or not?

Why is this topic so hard to follow and get a straight point by point answer to?

What works? What doesn't? How's it done?

I think the beam pattern issue NORTON is facing probably changes from housing to housing...it depends on how the clocking of bulb locking mechanism has been done. With a standard halogen clocking isn't an issue.

NORTON, that kit you got from Amazon...was it easy to install and replace the stock bulbs? Was there anything special do to? Cutting, etc?

Besides the bad pattern, was there considerably more light than the standard bulbs and can you use them as DRLs? High beams also?

Thanks

nozferatu said:

NORTON, that kit you got from Amazon...was it easy to install and replace the stock bulbs? Was there anything special do to? Cutting, etc?
Besides the bad pattern, ......
Thanks

Click to expand...

Buddy,
What do you mean "besides the pattern"?????

Someone would be a Royal A-hole to knowingly drive with their headlights putting out a dangerous/obnoxious head light pattern. These people are out there now.
Most of the unsafe, inconsiderate jerks are using any HID bulb that fits in the headlight assembly. A lot of them are running around with their goofy bluish lights on High Beams all the time.
I had one behind me in dark rush hour stop and go traffic one time. He was lighting up all the highway signs and blinding everyone.I like to think they don't last long before getting stopped and fined. Wishful thinking?.....

Please be a good guy and do not use the LED system I posted above. It's unsafe.

noz,
Here's what you can do to help this subject. Others can join in this search. Buy one of these sets ▼ and post detailed pictures. Garage door pictures with one side stock, please. (It's funny how reviews show pictures of the front of the car with the headlights on. That is not a useful picture.)
I was in touch with the seller and they are good with returns if the pattern is wrong. There are a lot of H13 LED's. It's the pattern they produce that matters. Watch for return policy. And, PLEASE, don't be one of those guys that drives around with crappy aftermarket headlights.
http://smile.amazon.com/OPT7-Headlight-Bulbs-Clear-Arc-Beam/dp/B00VNBDWPK/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1440851240&sr=1-1&keywords=led+headlights&pebp=1440851257728&perid=0G48XWV2TFY34CMYTVDS

Or this $46 ebay set. 'Buyer pays return shipping': http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-Cree-High-Power-60W-9008-H13-LED-Headlight-Kit-6000K-White-Hi-LO-Beam-Lights-/291543214430?hash=item43e154695e&vxp=mtr

It is amazing how normal H13's work. There is no actual reflector in the bulb, just the two Hi/Lo filaments a small distance apart. The headlight assembly creates the pattern.
With the LED's there is a Hi/Lo element on opposite sides. It needs to be clocked in at the correct angle so the pattern is correct. If they made the angle adjustable the previous set would have worked fine. It's the luck of the draw with all the LED's out there.
One LED seller said the pulsed DRL voltage would not work with their LED's. Be sure to test the LED's daytime and night. They might need capacitors added if they don't work as DRL.

OK, seriously...
I am on track to testing an HID system that looks good in initial testing. I'll post results soon.

I have a set of 35 watt HID Hi/Low 4300k bulbs. This is the kind that actually moves the HID capsule mechanically, in and out, with a solenoid action in the base.
I pulled up to a wall with the stock headlights and marked on the wall the upper and lower parts of the pattern of the low and high beams.
Then I set up a test rig to power one 35 watt HID ballast and a Hi/Lo bulb with a way to switch from low to high beams.
It looked like it had very decent patterns low and high !!
I just got the relay kit to make this work normally. I'll be testing it tomorrow on one side only to compare patterns.



The issues are:
1. Will the relay remain engaged when the low beam power is a Pulsed DC (DRL's). A small capacitor would stabilize the the relay if it tries to chatter on DRL.

2. This relay kit has one power wire/fuse going to a 12V source and one original headlight connector. The relay can control two ballasts and bulbs and the two small connectors that handle the Hi/Lo solenoids on the bulbs.
This would work, but it is not safe or legal to have both headlights powered by one fuse/relay. If one part fails and you are in the DARK.
This is why there are always 2 separate fuses for Left and Right Headlights.
If it works good on one side, I'll buy a second relay kit and have two separated HID systems. I'll cut off the extra connectors on each relay kit.
I had a set of quality 35W HID's from my Volt. I bought just the Hi/Lo H13 bulbs and one relay kit (so far) for not much money. If you have a set of ballasts from another car you could do this.

So, stby, I'll be posting pictures comparing HID to Stock this weekend.

So, any volunteers to buy some of the H13 LED bulbs that are out there?
Please post pics and return the unsafe ones,,, so we can all benefit from a knowledge base.

I'll be posting about my promising HID system later.

Thanks, Bill

NORTON said:

Buddy,
What do you mean "besides the pattern"?????

Someone would be a Royal A-hole to knowingly drive with their headlights putting out a dangerous/obnoxious head light pattern. These people are out there now.
Most of the unsafe, inconsiderate jerks are using any HID bulb that fits in the headlight assembly. A lot of them are running around with their goofy bluish lights on High Beams all the time.
I had one behind me in dark rush hour stop and go traffic one time. He was lighting up all the highway signs and blinding everyone.I like to think they don't last long before getting stopped and fined. Wishful thinking?.....

Please be a good guy and do not use the LED system I posted above. It's unsafe.

Click to expand...

Whoa there buddy! I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. Like I said I think the pattern has to do with the clocking and every car has a different clocking I bet...especially cars that are based on halogen bulb tech as clocking isn't an issue (or as much of an issue).

My question was strictly about the light quality and not the pattern. That's what I wanted you to answer and focus on. I'm not going to put these on my car and blind people but there are many factors involved in using these lights as replacement...not just the pattern. So I'm not going to rush out there and blow $150 on headlights that will not be better than the stock version and burn out or not work at all.

noz,
Here's what you can do to help this subject. Others can join in this search. Buy one of these sets ▼ and post detailed pictures. Garage door pictures with one side stock, please. (It's funny how reviews show pictures of the front of the car with the headlights on. That is not a useful picture.)
I was in touch with the seller and they are good with returns if the pattern is wrong. There are a lot of H13 LED's. It's the pattern they produce that matters. Watch for return policy. And, PLEASE, don't be one of those guys that drives around with crappy aftermarket headlights.
c

Or this $46 ebay set. 'Buyer pays return shipping': http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-Cree-High-Power-60W-9008-H13-LED-Headlight-Kit-6000K-White-Hi-LO-Beam-Lights-/291543214430?hash=item43e154695e&vxp=mtr

It is amazing how normal H13's work. There is no actual reflector in the bulb, just the two Hi/Lo filaments a small distance apart. The headlight assembly creates the pattern.
With the LED's there is a Hi/Lo element on opposite sides. It needs to be clocked in at the correct angle so the pattern is correct. If they made the angle adjustable the previous set would have worked fine. It's the luck of the draw with all the LED's out there.
One LED seller said the pulsed DRL voltage would not work with their LED's. Be sure to test the LED's daytime and night. They might need capacitors added if they don't work as DRL.

Click to expand...

The first link is for H11's which I don't think fit an H13 housing. The second set...frankly...with a price point that low...as weird as it sounds...is off putting. Two LED lights for $46? Something doesn't seem right. But I guess it's cheap enough to give it a try.

I was looking at these:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00VNBDWPK?ref_=sr_1_1&s=automotive&qid=1440851240&sr=1-1&keywords=led%20headlights&pebp=1440851257728&perid=0G48XWV2TFY34CMYTVDS&pldnSite=1

OK, seriously...
I am on track to testing an HID system that looks good in initial testing. I'll post results soon.

I have a set of 35 watt HID Hi/Low 4300k bulbs. This is the kind that actually moves the HID capsule mechanically, in and out, with a solenoid action in the base.
I pulled up to a wall with the stock headlights and marked on the wall the upper and lower parts of the pattern of the low and high beams.
Then I set up a test rig to power one 35 watt HID ballast and a Hi/Lo bulb with a way to switch from low to high beams.
It looked like it had very decent patterns low and high !!
I just got the relay kit to make this work normally. I'll be testing it tomorrow on one side only to compare patterns.



The issues are:
1. Will the relay remain engaged when the low beam power is a Pulsed DC (DRL's). A small capacitor would stabilize the the relay if it tries to chatter on DRL.

2. This relay kit has one power wire/fuse going to a 12V source and one original headlight connector. The relay can control two ballasts and bulbs and the two small connectors that handle the Hi/Lo solenoids on the bulbs.
This would work, but it is not safe or legal to have both headlights powered by one fuse/relay. If one part fails and you are in the DARK.
This is why there are always 2 separate fuses for Left and Right Headlights.
If it works good on one side, I'll buy a second relay kit and have two separated HID systems. I'll cut off the extra connectors on each relay kit.
I had a set of quality 35W HID's from my Volt. I bought just the Hi/Lo H13 bulbs and one relay kit (so far) for not much money. If you have a set of ballasts from another car you could do this.

So, stby, I'll be posting pictures comparing HID to Stock this weekend.

Click to expand...

Let us know how it goes. I've got about a year and half on my lease and want to be able to take the lights and use them on something else once my lease is over otherwise it's a complete waste of money.

If I do change my lights, they will be LED's...I don't want to use HIDs...hassle to install, hassle to maintain, ballasts, etc, expensive as all hell to replace. UNless they are factory installed, I'm not going to touch those types of lights.

nozferatu said:

Whoa there buddy! I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. Like I said I think the pattern has to do with the clocking and every car has a different clocking I bet...especially cars that are based on halogen bulb tech as clocking isn't an issue (or as much of an issue).

Click to expand...

Sorry, I was ranting in general at the yahoos that put anything in their head lights and don't G,A,S... Not you in particular. , sorry.
Yes that LED was plug and play. There is a small 'controller box' that is inline with the bulb but it can be ty-rap'd to the harness. It had no fan.
If it had the correct pattern it could have been a good replacement, maybe, I'm not certain if it worked in DRL mode and Headlight mode. Anyone doing this testing has to check both modes.

You are correct about clocking.
If an LED manufacture would make an H13 LED that allows clocking to the correct pattern and then locking it there, we would have a winner !

Yeah, I prefer LED over HID also, but a 35 W HID is still energy saving and puts out more lumens than a 35 W LED. HID has a better Watts to Lumen rate.
And I have the ballasts from my previous car, so I'm pursuing a safe, efficient HID installation.
Not that expensive, the H13 Hi/Lo bulbs- $20/pair. The relay- $10,, I'll need two for a safe installation. A decent 35W ballast- $13. A whole kit might be less. But make sure you get the "Hi/Lo" bulbs and not the "Bi-xenon", some of those have an incandescent lamp piggy backed for a high beam.

If anyone finds an H13 LED that works let us know, with pictures ! Thanks,

NORTON said:

nozferatu said:

Whoa there buddy! I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. Like I said I think the pattern has to do with the clocking and every car has a different clocking I bet...especially cars that are based on halogen bulb tech as clocking isn't an issue (or as much of an issue).

Click to expand...

Sorry, I was ranting in general at the yahoos that put anything in their head lights and don't G,A,S... Not you in particular. , sorry.
Yes that LED was plug and play. There is a small 'controller box' that is inline with the bulb but it can be ty-rap'd to the harness. It had no fan.
If it had the correct pattern it could have been a good replacement, maybe, I'm not certain if it worked in DRL mode and Headlight mode. Anyone doing this testing has to check both modes.

You are correct about clocking.
If an LED manufacture would make an H13 LED that allows clocking to the correct pattern and then locking it there, we would have a winner !

Yeah, I prefer LED over HID also, but a 35 W HID is still energy saving and puts out more lumens than a 35 W LED. HID has a better Watts to Lumen rate.
And I have the ballasts from my previous car, so I'm pursuing a safe, efficient HID installation.
Not that expensive, the H13 Hi/Lo bulbs- $20/pair. The relay- $10,, I'll need two for a safe installation. A decent 35W ballast- $13. A whole kit might be less. But make sure you get the "Hi/Lo" bulbs and not the "Bi-xenon", some of those have an incandescent lamp piggy backed for a high beam.

If anyone finds an H13 LED that works let us know, with pictures ! Thanks,

Click to expand...

Yeah I wrote to the Amazon seller for those lights and haven't heard a thing. I don't like that....makes me not want to but it from them just in case I don't like it or it doesn't work well or at all.

I'm assuming you did do some real world testing of that LED set? Daytime and night? Besides the bad pattern, would you have thought it superior to the standard bulbs??

nozferatu said:

Yeah I wrote to the Amazon seller for those lights and haven't heard a thing. I don't like that....makes me not want to but it from them just in case I don't like it or it doesn't work well or at all.

I'm assuming you did do some real world testing of that LED set? Daytime and night? Besides the bad pattern, would you have thought it superior to the standard bulbs??

Click to expand...

They replied to me and said sending them back is not a problem. Besides, you have amazon on your side. They can be returned for any reason, shipping paid.

NO, I did not drive out in the 'real world' with a bad light pattern that would be obnoxious/unsafe to oncoming cars. I'm not that kind of person. Jeez...

I did test my HID setup on the road this morning and I'll post pictures and a review later today.

NORTON said:

Besides, you have amazon on your side. They can be returned for any reason, shipping paid.

Click to expand...

not to rat hole the conversation, and: no, that's not always true, in my sad experience :x

NORTON said:

nozferatu said:

Yeah I wrote to the Amazon seller for those lights and haven't heard a thing. I don't like that....makes me not want to but it from them just in case I don't like it or it doesn't work well or at all.

I'm assuming you did do some real world testing of that LED set? Daytime and night? Besides the bad pattern, would you have thought it superior to the standard bulbs??

Click to expand...

They replied to me and said sending them back is not a problem. Besides, you have amazon on your side. They can be returned for any reason, shipping paid.

NO, I did not drive out in the 'real world' with a bad light pattern that would be obnoxious/unsafe to oncoming cars. I'm not that kind of person. Jeez...

I did test my HID setup on the road this morning and I'll post pictures and a review later today.

Click to expand...

LOL...You could have taken it around the block late at night couldn't you when no one is around??? Or just drive up and down and the street for 1 minute to check them out???

noz,
Why would I bother taking them for a drive and risk bothering someone? I was not going to be driving with them anyway. Period.

The 35W Hi/Lo HID system is not that impressive.
The low beam pattern is a little low where it is brightest but the top cutoff of the pattern seems to match the stock bulb, but then it rises off to the left side, Not Good.
HID - Left, Stock - Right.


The high beam is similar.


The pictures do not do justice to what is seen with the eye.
They were not that impressive in driving. It was coming up on daybreak so it was not total darkness when I drove down a dark country road.
These were 4300k color, which is supposed to produce the most lumens per watt.
They make good light close to the car with the proper cutoff height, you can kind of see this, but it's not a big improvement at a distance.

I'm going to drive with it for a while like this and test further, but so far I feel like it was a waste of $30. I had the ballasts. I bought the Hi/Lo bulbs - $20 and one relay kit - $10.
I'm not going to re-aim the headlights. Part of the plan is to have the stock lamps wrapped up in a ziplock bag for a roadside swap if necessary.
Someone should step up and buy the $46 LED system! Or, ideally, find an H13 LED bulb that allows clocking/aiming the pattern.
We need more testers...

NORTON said:

noz,
Why would I bother taking them for a drive and risk bothering someone? I was not going to be driving with them anyway. Period.

The 35W Hi/Lo HID system is not that impressive.
The low beam pattern is a little low where it is brightest but the top cutoff of the pattern seems to match the stock bulb, but then it rises off to the left side, Not Good.
HID - Left, Stock - Right.


The high beam is similar.


The pictures do not do justice to what is seen with the eye.
They were not that impressive in driving. It was coming up on daybreak so it was not total darkness when I drove down a dark country road.
These were 4300k color, which is supposed to produce the most lumens per watt.
They make good light close to the car with the proper cutoff height, you can kind of see this, but it's not a big improvement at a distance.

I'm going to drive with it for a while like this and test further, but so far I feel like it was a waste of $30. I had the ballasts. I bought the Hi/Lo bulbs - $20 and one relay kit - $10.
I'm not going to re-aim the headlights. Part of the plan is to have the stock lamps wrapped up in a ziplock bag for a roadside swap if necessary.
Someone should step up and buy the $46 LED system! Or, ideally, find an H13 LED bulb that allows clocking/aiming the pattern.
We need more testers...

Click to expand...

Well I bought the LEDs you returned so I'll see how they are with my car.

http://www.amazon.com/OPT7-Headlight-Bulbs-Clear-Arc-Beam/dp/B00VNBEBCS/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1441074732&sr=1-1&keywords=OPT7+LED+Headlight+Bulbs+w%2F+Clear+Arc-Beam+Kit+-+H13+%289008%29+-+80w+7%2C000Lm+6K+Cool+White+CREE+-+2+Yr+Warranty

I'll let you know.

noz,

Correction:
These are the LED I tested and returned: http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UMHCCSY?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s01

I hope the set you're trying works correctly. Show 'wall' pictures, please.

(did you really think the bad pattern set would be different in your car?)

NORTON said:

noz,

Correction:
These are the LED I tested and returned: http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UMHCCSY?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s01

I hope the set you're trying works correctly. Show 'wall' pictures, please.

(did you really think the bad pattern set would be different in your car?)

Click to expand...

Ok well it'll be interesting to see if the set I'm getting will be different...who knows until you try. If so, the one's I'm getting seem to have very high lumens (7000 versus your kit of 5600) output which is what I want if done safely.

The small cap covering the bulbs will shield the head-on pattern at least and we'll see if the clocking on my car is different. If not, I'll send them back.

Again, I'm thinking the clocking may be different because halogen bulbs don't require clocking.

Regardless of the clocking, it seems to me your LEDs put out more light than the HIDs you have is that correct??

nozferatu said:

>... because halogen bulbs don't require clocking.

>> it seems to me your LEDs put out more light than the HIDs you have is that correct??

Click to expand...

>I'm not sure if this is correct. I'm pretty sure the 3 tabs that hold the bulb in only go in one way. We both can go check that. So we are stuck with whatever the beams the LED's produce
And be careful that the orange rubber seal stays on the bulb. I had one stick to the headlight assembly. I used a little silicone grease to lube the seal so that won't happen again, I hope.

>> I lost track of lumens these HID's are rated for. You can't really tell from the two pictures I posted. You'd need the same wall in the same dark conditions. I still haven't been out in real darkness on a real country road.

I sure hope you found a winner!

Like I said, if the manufacturers would allow clocking after the bulb base is locked in place we's could nail it.

NORTON said:

nozferatu said:

>... because halogen bulbs don't require clocking.

>> it seems to me your LEDs put out more light than the HIDs you have is that correct??

Click to expand...

>I'm not sure if this is correct. I'm pretty sure the 3 tabs that hold the bulb in only go in one way. We both can go check that. So we are stuck with whatever the beams the LED's produce
And be careful that the orange rubber seal stays on the bulb. I had one stick to the headlight assembly. I used a little silicone grease to lube the seal so that won't happen again, I hope.

>> I lost track of lumens these HID's are rated for. You can't really tell from the two pictures I posted. You'd need the same wall in the same dark conditions. I still haven't been out in real darkness on a real country road.

I sure hope you found a winner!

Like I said, if the manufacturers would allow clocking after the bulb base is locked in place we's could nail it.

Click to expand...

Yes I agree. Arriving tomorrow...we shall see.

BTW...

I'm curious...I assume these LEDS:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00VNBEBCS?ref_=sr_1_2&s=automotive&qid=1438880349&sr=1-2&keywords=h%2013%20led%20headlights&pldnSite=1

Run at a lower wattage than the standard halogens right? So there is no issue with over heating?

Cheers

nozferatu said:

BTW...

I'm curious...I assume these LEDS:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00VNBEBCS?ref_=sr_1_2&s=automotive&qid=1438880349&sr=1-2&keywords=h%2013%20led%20headlights&pldnSite=1

Run at a lower wattage than the standard halogens right? So there is no issue with over heating?

Cheers

Click to expand...

what makes you think that there is a connection between power consumption and heat produced?

nikwax said:

what makes you think that there is a connection between power consumption and heat produced?

Click to expand...

Of course there is. This is always the case with electrical/electronics.
The stock incandescents are 55w Lo and 60w Hi, each,,, I think it is...
The LED's listed above are 80w total. Maybe less on Lo.
LED's put out more lumens per watt than an incandescent, but heat is still generated and these direct most of the heat outside the headlight reflector assembly with the fans and aluminum heat sinks.
With the incandescents there is a lot of waste heat that is totally dissipated within the headlight reflector.

So the idea is to save a little wattage because these lights are on day and night with this car and, mainly for me, have more lumens shining down the road, but only in a safe manner.

There are all these 'high performance' incandescents made by name brand manufacturers, like this example:http://www.amazon.com/SYLVANIA-SilverStar-Performance-Halogen-Headlight/dp/B005KDO8U0/ref=sr_1_5?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1441233485&sr=1-5&keywords=H13+headlights

But these are the same wattage, sometimes more than stock. They produce more light because the bulbs are just driven harder (think 11 volt bulb) and thus have a much shorter life.
Some of these are rated for only 250 hours life ! In the Spark EV with the headlight bulbs also doing DRL duty, that would be ridiculous.

NORTON said:

nikwax said:

what makes you think that there is a connection between power consumption and heat produced?

Click to expand...

Of course there is. This is always the case with electrical/electronics.

Click to expand...

not to belabor the point, and I don't think we can assume that there is a linear relationship between power consumption and heat produced. Or more to the point, that technology x doesn't produce potentially destructive heat because it consumes less power than technology y.


I'm quite familiar with motorcyclists melting wiring and plastic reflectors by installing "high output" lighting, and this is not limited to incandescent lamps.


I'm glad to see that you have a clear goal in mind. Better lighting is always a good thing, if a little hard to define

I got my kit today...easy to install but somewhat of a pain to strap the additional wiring and harnesses inside the engine bay as there isn't much to hold on to.

Both headlights came with a rubber o-ring that I needed to remove because the headlight unit on the car already has a rubber o-ring attached to the bulb hole. Using both o-rings makes it impossible to put the bulb in because bulb cannot seat itself far enough inside for the tabs to grab and rotate to lock.

The clocking is around 30 degrees off the horizontal on both headlights. I'll see how they look at night.