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 Post subject: Re: Battery Degradation vs Battery Limited Warranty
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:30 pm 
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Posts: 10
I started keeping "performance" records again in 2016 after my post. The main thing I discovered is the "estimated remaining" plus the "actual travelled" no longer added up to 85 + / -.
Although I do not have my records from when I first got the car, previous to my post, universally the estimated remaining plus the actual travelled ALWAYS was in the 80's. Now you can see it is in the 70's.

Code:
Date      Full Charge*  Remaining*       Trip*     Total*
27-Jul     75             16             51.7      67.7
28-Jun     75             36             31.8      67.8
16-Aug     74             48             21.1      69.1
12-Aug     74             59             10.9      69.9
10-Aug     76             44             26.6      70.6
23-Jun     75             28             43.1      71.1
4-Sep      76             32             39.1      71.1
13-Sep     75             60             11.3      71.3
27-Jun     75             51             20.3      71.3
10-Sep     75             26             45.4      71.4
4-Aug      76             58             13.8      71.8
2-Sep      76             35             37.1      72.1
20-May     70             30             42.3      72.3
22-May     72             39             33.7      72.7
17-Sep     74             50             22.8      72.8
6-Aug      76             49             23.9      72.9
10-Jun     73             47             25.9      72.9
19-Aug     78             50             23.3      73.3
31-May     74             58             15.5      73.5
12-Jun     73             61             12.6      73.6
5-Jul      75             44             30.0      74.0
26-May     74             45             29.0      74.0
21-May     71             51             23.0      74.0
28-Jul     73             44             30.4      74.4
16-Jun     74             49             25.9      74.9
18-Jun     74             58             17.5      75.5
6-Jun      74             53             23.0      76.0
23-Sep     74             11             65.4      76.4
30-Jun     75             13             63.7      76.7
31-Aug     76             32             45.0      77.0
30-Jul     75             26             51.6      77.6
24-Aug     78             24             53.8      77.8
18-Aug     76             52             25.9      77.9
17-Aug     72             26             54.3      80.3
23-Aug     78             38             44.5      82.5
* = all ranges in miles


So, the bottom line is that after 2 years I lost about 10 miles of range. For the last 5 months, October 2016 - February 2017, I did not keep any records because nothing seemed to change. I kept the Spark EV until my Bolt arrived 2/7/2017. I kind of wonder if someone who may buy the Spark EV is expecting the 84 range rating the car originally had versus the actual range now of seventy something?

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Carl In OC
"I'd rather push an EV than drive a GV"


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 Post subject: Re: Battery Degradation vs Battery Limited Warranty
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:24 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:51 pm
Posts: 15
CarlinOC wrote:
I started keeping "performance" records again in 2016 after my post. The main thing I discovered is the "estimated remaining" plus the "actual travelled" no longer added up to 85 + / -.
Although I do not have my records from when I first got the car, previous to my post, universally the estimated remaining plus the actual travelled ALWAYS was in the 80's. Now you can see it is in the 70's.

<SNIP>

So, the bottom line is that after 2 years I lost about 10 miles of range. For the last 5 months, October 2016 - February 2017, I did not keep any records because nothing seemed to change. I kept the Spark EV until my Bolt arrived 2/7/2017. I kind of wonder if someone who may buy the Spark EV is expecting the 84 range rating the car originally had versus the actual range now of seventy something?


Could you re-post that in chronological order, rather than in range order, so that it would be easier to get a grip on what is happening? Thx.

Congrats on the Bolt. It would be interesting to hear your take on how the two compare.

FWIW, I've pushed cars. I'd much rather drive.


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 Post subject: Re: Battery Degradation vs Battery Limited Warranty
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:18 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:46 pm
Posts: 15
Location: MD
Great info!

It would be very interesting to hear your report comparing the Bolt to the Spark!

You hear that one or more of the many cells sometimes go bad in batteries. A little off topic, but a fellow with a Solar PV firm was telling me that Toyota wanted something like ~$3K to replace the battery in his dad's Prius. He said they took it out, diagnosed the few bad cells, and replaced them at a couple of hundred dollar cos. The fix got the battery was back to original capacity. Made me wonder if a similar fix would work on a Spark with a few bad cells?

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2016 Spark EV 2LT - Lime

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 Post subject: Re: Battery Degradation vs Battery Limited Warranty
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:46 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 10
I asked the Chevrolet Spark EV service guy about replacing cells. Said the battery is all or nothing. One unit.
Maybe, as said above, there will be a reasonably priced battery replacement that may even extend the range. (Sorta like replacing a blown engine on a car that is still worth it.)
I'd go back to a Spark in a heart beat if it got at least 170 mile range. That is all I really need.

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 Post subject: Re: Battery Degradation vs Battery Limited Warranty
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:13 am 
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Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 12:19 pm
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QuietRider wrote:
Toyota wanted something like ~$3K to replace the battery in his dad's Prius. He said they took it out, diagnosed the few bad cells, and replaced them at a couple of hundred dollar cos.

Gen1 Prius pack costs about $3K, and $2.3K with core return credit. Misc parts + labor add about $1.3K for a total of $3.6K. Pack is only 100 lb, and labor should be only 2 hours. However, the new pack only comes with 1 year warranty. Should anything go wrong, yet another $3.6K down the drain. This is why I didn't replace the Prius battery, instead got SparkEV.

There are shops that do for much less, but I wouldn't trust them. One company said there were so many returns after doing low cost pack replacement that they stopped that business.

If you only replace few cells with new ones in old battery, cells will be mismatched and could have bad consequence. I have to wonder if this is why so many low-cost replacement packs were failing.

Either way, entire pack should be replaced whether that's new or good working used. Cell matching is much more important with LiIon than with NiMH.


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 Post subject: Re: Battery Degradation vs Battery Limited Warranty
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 11:19 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:38 pm
Posts: 5
I just bought a used Spark EV in March. And was also wondering about battery capacity. I can't seem to find consistent information in the actual pack size for the 2014Spark EV. Also whether GM limited the useable capacity to help preserve battery life. And whether the warranty was based on 65% of useable capacity vs 65% of actual pack size.

For example is the total pack size 21kWh with a 10% buffer? And therefore a useable capacity of closer to 19kWh?

If the warranty is based on 65% of 21kWh, that puts the warranty not kicking in until battery capacity drops to close to 13.65kWh.


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 Post subject: Re: Battery Degradation vs Battery Limited Warranty
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:35 pm 
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CypressVH wrote:

<snip>
For example is the total pack size 21kWh with a 10% buffer? And therefore a useable capacity of closer to 19kWh?

If the warranty is based on 65% of 21kWh, that puts the warranty not kicking in until battery capacity drops to close to 13.65kWh.

You are right about the useable capacity being close to 19kWh. I was 18 point something when I had about 4 miles left. That was the closest I got to 0 miles left.

Basically, estimated remaining plus miles driven was pretty consistent for range. Either in the mid 80's or mid 70's later on.

The average of 4.4 miles per kWh was also relatively consistent thus 19 kWh x 4.4 = 83.6 which is the 84 miles total range spec. So, 4.4 x 13.65 puts minimum warranty range at 60. If full charge range and estimated range + miles driven both go below 60 miles, then you may have a warranty claim before 2024 (10 year warranty). If you are not planning to go more than 60 miles before the next charge, does it matter? I discovered only once in 3 years did I go more than 75+ miles in a single trip. All others were well within even the mid 70 range. The Spark EV is a GREAT urban runabout.

What is your Spark EV showing as full charge range?

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 Post subject: Re: Battery Degradation vs Battery Limited Warranty
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:24 pm 
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CarlinOC wrote:
You are right about the useable capacity being close to 19kWh. I was 18 point something when I had about 4 miles left. That was the closest I got to 0 miles left.

Basically, estimated remaining plus miles driven was pretty consistent for range. Either in the mid 80's or mid 70's later on.

The average of 4.4 miles per kWh was also relatively consistent thus 19 kWh x 4.4 = 83.6 which is the 84 miles total range spec. So, 4.4 x 13.65 puts minimum warranty range at 60. If full charge range and estimated range + miles driven both go below 60 miles, then you may have a warranty claim before 2024 (10 year warranty). If you are not planning to go more than 60 miles before the next charge, does it matter? I discovered only once in 3 years did I go more than 75+ miles in a single trip. All others were well within even the mid 70 range. The Spark EV is a GREAT urban runabout.

What is your Spark EV showing as full charge range?


When I first bought it it was showing ~60-65miles. But it was an Oregon car and the middle of winter. The average miles/kWh was something like 3.3miles. With some conservative driving and improved weather, I did some range estimates closer to 75-80miles.

70miles would just about get me to the airport and back (with about 2 miles left). But the need to go down and back to the AP is once or twice a year. But a couple times a week I need 65.5 miles or so round trip. Fortunately on those days I do have access to chargers during the day, if it seems I'm not going to make it. (Weather, etc).


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