connections— 10-30 to L6-20

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Pawl

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
131
My 240 access point is a 10-30P configuration in my laundry. I'm thinking of getting a TurboCord, which has the L6-20. I'll need to add an extension between the two and am curious if there's a difference if the adapter is closer to the TurboCord terminus or the laundry outlet (i.e., the extension being a L6-20 extension or a L6-30.

examples

http://www.corddepot.com/shop/ev-products/l6-20-ev-extension-cords/
http://evseupgrade.com/?main_page=product_info&products_id=24

Either way, I need to adapt an L6-20 to 10-30. I'd welcome suggestions, thanks.

(BTW, I'm planning ahead, since I'll be getting the car in January.)

UPDATE, I'm open to more than just the TurboCord.
 
If I understand you right you're asking if there is a difference between

Outlet -- Adapter -- Extension -- EVSE
and
Outlet -- Extension -- Adapter -- EVSE

No electrical difference.

Out of curiosity, why are you going with the TurboCord? It's quite expensive for a 16 ampere unit and I've never been in a situation where I've been anywhere where I could access a 220 volt socket on the road - at least without reorganizing somebody's garage - to make the portability factor an advantage. I enjoy the ability to just unplug from the car and go.
 
If you are planning to use NEMA 10-30 outlet, a word of caution. Most older 10-30 dryer outlets are 3 wires w/o a GND line. If you are planned to use a dryer outlet, make sure you have a 4 wire version NEMA 14-30 or 14-50, which has L1, L2, Neutral & GND.Most, if not all Level 2 EVSE, requires a true GND connection.

I agree that the TurboCord is priced out of value for a 16A unit. It was suggested by my dealer; which generally means not a great deal. The only benefit is that it is plug ready if you have the correct 240v outlet. However, I think the Turbocord need a true GND line since it uses NEMA 6-20. Hard to find a ready 6-20 outlet in a US home.

If you can get the Bosch $500 discount, they have a 16A unit for under $500 (which makes it basically free), but you will have to install yourself. Not too difficult to get a dryer cord and attach it yourself if you know what you are doing. Again, the Bosch also needs a true GND line. It uses L1, L2 and GND (no neutral). If you are on a 4 wire 14-30 dryer line, make sure you insulate and protect the neutral line.

If you want a plug-in unit, Clipper Creek LCS-25P has a 14-30 plug installed so you can plug directly into a 14-30 dryer outlet. It is a 25A unit and much cheaper than the Turbocord.

Best of luck & be safe.
 
I have a clipper creek LCS-25 that originally comes with a NEMA 14-30 connector. A friend of mine made a 14-30 to 10-30 coupler to plug into the dryer outlet, works well!
 
xylhim said:
I have a clipper creek LCS-25 that originally comes with a NEMA 14-30 connector. A friend of mine made a 14-30 to 10-30 coupler to plug into the dryer outlet, works well!

While it may work, from a safety point of view, there is a danger.

NEMA 10-30 outlets have 3 wires without ground (black, red, white), which has 2 out-of-phase hots and a neutral--there is no ground! On a dryer with 3 wire connection, the neutral is "bonded" to frame of the dryer. So while you can use neutral as GND under those conditions, most EVSE I have seen do not use neutral at all. It assumes a direct access to GND.

NEMA 14-30 outlets have 4 wires with ground (black, red, white, green), which has 2 out-of-phase hots, a neutral and an earth ground. On a dryer hookup with 4 wire connection, you are specifically informed to REMOVE the neutral to frame bond wire when wiring. This allows isolation between neutral and GND.

A 14-30 plug to 10-30 outlet adapter has to be using neutral as GND since you are going from 4-wire to 3-wires. Electrically from EVSE circuit viewpoint, Grounding makes no difference at all. However, correct Grounding is critical for the sake of personnel safety, by guaranteeing that at least one point in the circuit will be safe to touch (zero voltage to ground).

When GND and neutral are connected and there is a failure in the device, there is a possibility for crossing power into a neutral line (white wire) within the home. Crossing over to GND would have triggered the circuit-breaker. Potentially, a dangerous situation. Home insurance will definitely void coverage if a fire occurs due to this. The safe and correct thing to do is to change the 10-30 outlet to a 14-30 outlet.

Be safe playing with 240v lines carrying 30A of current on each leg.
 
Thanks all for your feedback. I have a 3-prong outlet for the 240 (calls for the 10-30P configuration plug). I looked at my panel and found that indeed it has the double 30A on both legs. (image) So the smart thing to do is to change the 10-30 to a 14-30 outlet and go from there, yes? Better than a coupler as xylem mentioned? I see a lot of adapters on evseadapters.com and other places. And it's confusing how many people are doing it this way and that. One post I read (on a Volt forum, for example: "I bought the Clipper Creek 14-30R. Even though the plug is 4 wires you only need three since the neutral is not used. I wired my outlet with all four wires in case I ever need to plug something else into the outlet. Call clipper Creek and confirm but the neutral wire on the end of their plug is essentially dead."

elec-panel.jpg
 
To add to my confusion, how does Tesla get away with selling—for their expensive cars— a whole range of adapters, for every conceivable outlet?

http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/charging/universal-mobile-connector

not to mention this company, selling the plugs for this purpose.

http://shop.quickchargepower.com
 
Pawl said:
To add to my confusion, how does Tesla get away with selling—for their expensive cars— a whole range of adapters, for every conceivable outlet?

http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/charging/universal-mobile-connector

Tesla gets away with it by taking a risk. 10-30 and 10-50 receptacles are no longer allowed for new construction, but they do exist.

PPL said:
When GND and neutral are connected and there is a failure in the device, there is a possibility for crossing power into a neutral line (white wire) within the home. Crossing over to GND would have triggered the circuit-breaker. Potentially, a dangerous situation. Home insurance will definitely void coverage if a fire occurs due to this. The safe and correct thing to do is to change the 10-30 outlet to a 14-30 outlet.

As I understand it, when 10-30s were allowed, neutral and ground were also normally bonded at both service and sub-panels. As such, in a failure state, where power traveled over the 10-30 neutral as ground, it would route to the true ground at the sub-panel, and would be unlikely to cross over onto other neutrals in the home. All that said, Tesla is probably exposed to some risk of lawsuit from a fire or injury in the event of a UMC failure in a home with lousy or damaged wiring.
 
I don't have the knowledge to question a questioner, but it would surprise the heck out of me if Tesla knowingly (or unknowingly?) is subjecting themselves to potential lawsuits in this situation. Really???
 
You know it is too bad that they don't have a conversion FROM the Tesla plug into a ChadeMo plug or the CCS plug so that we all could use their system ;0)


Pawl said:
To add to my confusion, how does Tesla get away with selling—for their expensive cars— a whole range of adapters, for every conceivable outlet?

http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/charging/universal-mobile-connector

not to mention this company, selling the plugs for this purpose.

http://shop.quickchargepower.com

edit to add ....
Wouldn't it be nice to use the extension to BLOCK in the damn ICE'd cars and use an extension so we could still charge.
Then walk away and let them sit till we come back ?

HAHAHAHHAHA
What are they going to do, call the Police? and possibly get a ticket for parking where they shouldn't ?

Not sure if I would want to leave a number where they could text me. Course it isn't like I am going to run out and move that instant. They would have to wait at least 15 minutes

MUHAHAHHA

I know.... sounds mean, but so what.
 
Pawl said:
Thanks all for your feedback. I have a 3-prong outlet for the 240 (calls for the 10-30P configuration plug). I looked at my panel and found that indeed it has the double 30A on both legs. (image) So the smart thing to do is to change the 10-30 to a 14-30 outlet and go from there, yes? Better than a coupler as xylem mentioned? I see a lot of adapters on evseadapters.com and other places. And it's confusing how many people are doing it this way and that. One post I read (on a Volt forum, for example: "I bought the Clipper Creek 14-30R. Even though the plug is 4 wires you only need three since the neutral is not used. I wired my outlet with all four wires in case I ever need to plug something else into the outlet. Call clipper Creek and confirm but the neutral wire on the end of their plug is essentially dead."

Safer to change outlet to 14-30. Yes, AFAIK none of the Level 2 EVSE uses the neutral line. Inside all EVSE, there is CAN board that communicates to the EV and triggers the relay to turn on the AC. That circuit board is powered by an AC (one of the hot legs) to DC circuit that is referenced to GND. So neutral is not needed. The circuit is grounded.

The issue is the 10-30 outlets do not have a real GND, it only has L1, L2 and Neutral. So any adapters from 14-30 to 10-30 has to use Neutral as psuedo-GND based upon the assumption that Neutral and GND are "bonded" at the sub-panel.

As noted, the issue is not that EVSE will not work with such an adapter. Don't confuse Grounded vs Grounding. EVSE will still work if it is Grounded via Neutral. A grounded wire is required by the National Electrical Code to be white or gray in color and correctly referred to as a "grounded neutral conductor". Neutral or grounded wire is a necessary part of the electrical path for 120V and grounded wires carry electrical current under normal operating conditions.

A "grounding" wire is required by the National Electrical Code to be a bare wire, or if insulated, a green or green with yellow colored insulation. It is a safety wire that has intentionally been connected to earth. The grounding wire must not carry electricity under normal circuit operations. It will carry brief electrical current only under short circuit or other conditions that are potentially dangerous and cause shutdown. Grounding wires serve as an alternate path for the current to flow back to the source, rather than go through anyone touching the unit.

The concern is safety when you mix Grounded wire with Grounding wire through the house. It should only be "bonded" at the sub-panel. IMHO, Tesla is taking a risk delivering 10-30 adapters but maybe their owners are well-off enough to take the risk. I would read the fine print on using those adapters. For Spark EV or Volt users the 3.3Kw demand is well within the 10-30 current limits so the Neutral vs GND is the only concern to worry about.
 
tigger19687 said:
You know it is too bad that they don't have a conversion FROM the Tesla plug into a ChadeMo plug or the CCS plug so that we all could use their system ;0)


Pawl said:
To add to my confusion, how does Tesla get away with selling—for their expensive cars— a whole range of adapters, for every conceivable outlet?

http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/charging/universal-mobile-connector

not to mention this company, selling the plugs for this purpose.

http://shop.quickchargepower.com

edit to add ....
Wouldn't it be nice to use the extension to BLOCK in the damn ICE'd cars and use an extension so we could still charge.
Then walk away and let them sit till we come back ?

HAHAHAHHAHA
What are they going to do, call the Police? and possibly get a ticket for parking where they shouldn't ?

I would have no problem blocking somebody while using our company's JLong J1772 extension cord:

http://shop.quickchargepower.com/JLONG-40-Amp-J1772-extension-cable-JL40A.htm
 
PPL said:
Safer to change outlet to 14-30. Yes, AFAIK none of the Level 2 EVSE uses the neutral line. Inside all EVSE, there is CAN board that communicates to the EV and triggers the relay to turn on the AC. That circuit board is powered by an AC (one of the hot legs) to DC circuit that is referenced to GND. So neutral is not needed. The circuit is grounded.

No, actually J1772 does not use CAN messaging for AC charging. The two communication pins are strictly analog.

PILOT - +12 VDC, that becomes +9VDC with a 1kHz square wave, whose duty cycle indicates amps. 6 VDC is charging, and 3 VDC is "ventilation required", from lead acid battery days.

PROXIMITY - merely 150 ohms (connected) or 480 ohms (disconnected) signals from the EVSE.


The concern is safety when you mix Grounded wire with Grounding wire through the house. It should only be "bonded" at the sub-panel. IMHO, Tesla is taking a risk delivering 10-30 adapters but maybe their owners are well-off enough to take the risk. I would read the fine print on using those adapters. For Spark EV or Volt users the 3.3Kw demand is well within the 10-30 current limits so the Neutral vs GND is the only concern to worry about.

Neither Tesla, nor any company like our's <www.shop.QuickChargePower.com> can look into any electrical outlet and know if it's safe or correct.

There is no "fine print" to use the adaptors; that's merely your fear mongering.

I personally don't like 10-30, nor 10-50 outlets for the very reasons you state, but that doesn't mean I think they are unsafe. Obviously, all these outlets can be (and are) used safely EVERY day.

Any of these outlets are perfectly safe to use for a Spark EV. Yes, I prefer the 14-30 / 14-50 (or even 6-50) outlets, but if there was a serious safety issue here, the regulatory bodies would OUTLAW them. EVSE manufacturers are NOT the regulatory bodies.

That hasn't happened, and won't happen.
 
TonyWilliams said:
There is no "fine print" to use the adaptors; that's merely your fear mongering.

I think name-calling someone you don't know as "fear mongering" is a bit strong for just providing the facts.

I never told anyone not to use the adapters, I never said it does not work, just warning the code violation. If you can show me that these 10-30 adapters meet National Electrical Code, I will withdraw my statements.

Safety is a personal choice. I believe it is safer to upgrade a 10-30 outlet to a 14-30 outlet, instead of using a 4-wire to 3-wire adapter. I don't offer a service to convert, I don't sell an adapter. You are the one with a business incentive to defend if you do. Try doing it w/o resorting to name calling. It is beneath you.
 
If you are looking to plug your L6-20P plug side into a 10-30P you could use an adapter like this: http://www.corddepot.com/shop/power-adapter/l6-20-ev-adapter-cords/

Select 10-30 for the male side. Then just use the L6-20 extension cord referenced earlier.
 
PPL said:
TonyWilliams said:
There is no "fine print" to use the adaptors; that's merely your fear mongering.

I think name-calling someone you don't know as "fear mongering" is a bit strong for just providing the facts.

I never told anyone not to use the adapters, I never said it does not work, just warning the code violation. If you can show me that these 10-30 adapters meet National Electrical Code, I will withdraw my statements.

Safety is a personal choice. I believe it is safer to upgrade a 10-30 outlet to a 14-30 outlet, instead of using a 4-wire to 3-wire adapter. I don't offer a service to convert, I don't sell an adapter. You are the one with a business incentive to defend if you do. Try doing it w/o resorting to name calling. It is beneath you.

I believe your cautions are "fear mongering", which is NOT a name that I'm calling you, but a descriptor of my opinion of your words. I stand by that assertion. Obviously, 10-30 no LONGER meets the electrical code (but it did at one time) since it has been superseded by the 14-30. I do agree one is safer than the other, hence the change to the electric code, but that doesn't make the previous one "unsafe". As I stated, I believe ground and neutral should be separate. So does the National Electric Code.

I do NOT make money on 10-30 products (we sell such a 10-30 adaptor "at cost"), so I don't personally care if we sell one hundred or zero. I have no incentive to demonize, nor promote, a 10-30. I actually agree, again, with your assertions that 14-30 is better, but not your assertions that 10-30 requires some "fine print" to use, insinuating that it might be unsafe.

Your quote, "I would read the fine print on using those adapters."
 
TonyWilliams said:
I believe your cautions are "fear mongering", which is NOT a name that I'm calling you, but a descriptor of my opinion of your words. I stand by that assertion. Obviously, 10-30 no LONGER meets the electrical code (but it did at one time) since it has been superseded by the 14-30. I do agree one is safer than the other, hence the change to the electric code, but that doesn't make the previous one "unsafe". As I stated, I believe ground and neutral should be separate. So does the National Electric Code.

I do NOT make money on 10-30 products (we sell such a 10-30 adaptor "at cost"), so I don't personally care if we sell one hundred or zero. I have no incentive to demonize, nor promote, a 10-30. I actually agree, again, with your assertions that 14-30 is better, but not your assertions that 10-30 requires some "fine print" to use, insinuating that it might be unsafe.

Your quote, "I would read the fine print on using those adapters."

The "fine print" is what's on your home insurance coverage rules. Just ask a friendly insurance agent about using non-National Electrical Code approved wiring in your house and see what he/she says. If these adapters does have an approval, do let us know.

You say that GND and neutral should be separate per the Electrical Code and "safer then the other" but the 10-30 adapter is safe to use. You take both sides of the position so that you can pass judgement on others as fear-mongering. You agree that my points about code and safety are correct but you are morally superior than I, since I incite FUD by warning others.

You could have simply pointed out that YOU believe it is safe enough to use and let people make their own choice on taking the risk. I was asked which is preferred, 10-30 via adapter or change to 14-30 outlet. My OPINION is the latter becos' it meets code and safer. I sleep better knowing that no one is taking any risk on my feedback.

Case closed.
 
PPL said:
The "fine print" is what's on your home insurance coverage rules. Just ask a friendly insurance agent about using non-National Electrical Code approved wiring in your house and see what he/she says. If these adapters does have an approval, do let us know.
PPL, I have seen people warn about homeowners insurance refusal cover issues based on DIY / un-permitted / non-NEC / non-UL-approved work and equipment.

But I have not seen anyone actually quote a policy that really does have words to that effect. I've gone searching myself, and cannot find anything. I even found people calling such warnings Urban Legend.
 
SteveC5088 said:
PPL said:
The "fine print" is what's on your home insurance coverage rules. Just ask a friendly insurance agent about using non-National Electrical Code approved wiring in your house and see what he/she says. If these adapters does have an approval, do let us know.
PPL, I have seen people warn about homeowners insurance refusal cover issues based on DIY / un-permitted / non-NEC / non-UL-approved work and equipment.

But I have not seen anyone actually quote a policy that really does have words to that effect. I've gone searching myself, and cannot find anything. I even found people calling such warnings Urban Legend.

I'm curious if there's been any reported house fires that were the result of such adapters, or [heavy duty] extension cords for EVSE's. Anyone know of any? Laws may change if such events happen, but I still have to wonder if there is a danger beyond a perceived potential when a corporation like Tesla sells them online.

That being said, the combo I originally proposed may not be the best option—and certainly not a permanent one, since with no external power outlet, any cord would have to pass through a window (of course, I'd have to do this with a 120 option as well). 20 ft from 10-30 outlet to window, and another 15-20 ft to car...it's doable, but not very elegant, and less safe than it ought to be.

The first reply to my original post wondered about the need for portability (Turbocord). I agree that it seems overpriced at $650 (I see them for less on eBay now and again), especially given that it's limited to 6-20 outlets within 20 feet of the car. How often will you find THAT situation? One would need an array of adapters like this—http://www.evnut.com/charger_adapters.htm— to really make the TC a viable option for L2 portability, imho, so you're back to the same issue of safety (more or less). Still, it seems great to have so many additional options en route for L2 charging.

Looks like my permanent solution is running the power from the opposite side of the house, and installing either a charging station on the driveway side of the house or an outlet for a portable (Turbocord or otherwise). Even a temporary fix will cost $$ if I want access to L2 charging. BTW, can someone tell me why the additional charging station/box is needed for the 240v? Aren't the L1 charging cords that come with ev's simply a regular 120 plug, a cord, and an ev plug?
 
Pawl said:
BTW, can someone tell me why the additional charging station/box is needed for the 240v? Aren't the L1 charging cords that come with ev's simply a regular 120 plug, a cord, and an ev plug?
No, they aren't just connectors. There is a circuit board and microchip within the EVSE that controls relay switches that actually turn on the 120 or 240 Volts that power the car's onboard charger.

The box is an important safety switch. Otherwise the J1772 plug that goes into the car would be carrying live power at all times. Even I would agree that is a safety hazard.

In the TurboCord, the "brains" of the unit are built into that small box that plugs into the wall. In Europe, there is a J1772 unit available that has the circuitry all in the J1772 handle.
 
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