NORTON
Posts: 1243
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 5:52 am
Location: KC,MO

New Comparison site for EV emissions

Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:48 pm

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/el ... ONAL/_/_/_

How clean is your Spark EV in your area compared to other cars?
Used '14 2LT w/ DCFC. +73 K miles.
Mostly free charging! Only one LONG visit to the shop....
GM needs Modern Troubleshooting tools for Modern EV's.
3 step Trouble Tree, 2nd guess not covered by warranty and cost $800. 3rd guess fixed the problem.

fox
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:16 pm

Re: New Comparison site for EV emissions

Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:26 pm

YOu already know the answer but for anyone else.
A 2014 Chevrolet Spark EV charged in 64052 produces about as much global warming pollution as a gasoline vehicle getting 42 miles per gallon.

emv
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:47 pm
Location: PDX

Re: New Comparison site for EV emissions

Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:11 pm

Now this is more like it.

A 2014 Chevrolet Spark EV charged in 97068 produces about as much global warming pollution as a gasoline vehicle getting 111 miles per gallon.
2014 Spark, 2005 Prius. When we take the Prius we say we're taking the gas hog.

NORTON
Posts: 1243
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 5:52 am
Location: KC,MO

Re: New Comparison site for EV emissions

Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:25 am

Yep, It always local grid dependent.
But how often is that the center of stories about EV pollution?
Go solar at home and hold your head high !!
Used '14 2LT w/ DCFC. +73 K miles.
Mostly free charging! Only one LONG visit to the shop....
GM needs Modern Troubleshooting tools for Modern EV's.
3 step Trouble Tree, 2nd guess not covered by warranty and cost $800. 3rd guess fixed the problem.

67goat
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:27 pm

Re: New Comparison site for EV emissions

Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:44 pm

Interesting tool, but I don't want to sign up for the GREET tool to get all of the details on how they calculate emissions.

For example, are they taking into account that very little of the gasoline used in US cars comes from oil drilled in the US? The oil we produce is mostly unsuitable for our own refineries. That is why we export light crude to other countries and import medium crude here.

Are they averaging out the total energy expenditure by location? 15-20% of our oil is from Canada and much of that comes through pipelines, so there is limited additional carbon foot print to transport it. However, as much as 50% of our oil does not come from the Western Hemisphere, meaning it is brought over on tanker ships (which have horrible carbon footprints, especially in international waters).

I had trouble finding good data on what oil from where gets turned into gasoline, which would also affect the calculations. If all the Canadian oil we get was turned into heating oil, plastics, heavy fuel oil, diesel, and fuel for the few remaining oil fired power plants in the US, then the lower carbon footprint of Canadian oil would be more beneficial to the EV calculations. If the reverse were true, and Canadian oil were heavily weighted towards gas, then it would benefit the calculations for non-diesel ICE vehicles more. Similar statements could be made about oil from anywhere.

Given that both this group and the one running the GREET project are scientists, it would make sense that they tried to calculate this. But the only scientists likely to have accurate information about what percentage of oil from which countries is made into specific products are the scientists that work for oil companies. So even considering these extra variables, it would either be done by those without a complete picture, or by those with a vested interest in making the numbers show the oil industry in the best light.

StevesWeb
Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:36 pm

Re: New Comparison site for EV emissions

Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:19 am

We just got a check from SoCalEd for the third year in a row, we are net producers of electricity. Our 2014 Spark EV has never been charged anywhere except at home. 78 solar panels make lots of power.

Redpoint5
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:46 am

Re: New Comparison site for EV emissions

Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:33 am

That website sucks.

My electricity comes from hydro, and it said that charging an EV emits as much CO2 as an 86 MPG petrol vehicle. Further below, it goes on to show that an EV emits 1/4 of the CO2 as the average petrol vehicle. The website contradicts itself on the same page!

I also put in many different zip codes, up to a hundred miles apart, and it gave the same 86 MPG figure for every zip code. It's not even trying to give localized results!

Finally, it's nearly impossible to compare EV to conventional vehicles. Exploration, extraction, refinement, and transportation consume enormous amounts of both electricity and fossil fuel. Are these CO2 emissions figured into the estimates?

This doesn't even pass the rationality test. Things that are more expensive usually consume more energy, and things that are less expensive usually consume less energy. I pay 10 cents per mile in gasoline to drive my 30 MPG Acura. I pay 2 cents per mile in electricity to drive an EV. It's highly improbable that EV, at 1/5th the cost of gasoline is emitting more CO2. Why would gasoline cost 5x more to propel my vehicle if it is indeed more energy efficient? If something doesn't make sense, it's probably a lie.

67goat
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:27 pm

Re: New Comparison site for EV emissions

Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:53 am

I'm not seeing the contradiction in the first two statements. The emission comparisons are also regionally based. If your car emits the same as a 86 mpg car and 1/4 of the emissions of an ICE car in your region, then that just means the average ICE car in your region gets about 21.5 mpg (national average is 24.8, average in my region is 29).

As for localized results, they probably are just looking at the major players in each region. There are literally thousands of municipal power companies throughout the country when you take into account small town/city based power companies. The data from those small companies is probably in very few, if any, studies for them to pull data from. So a town like Turlock, CA is probably under PG&E numbers, even though they generate power on their own. Plus, even if those numbers are included, your local power numbers would still be diluted due to the fact they are likely on the national grid, so while you may have a local utility that generates power, it is still likely commingled with power generation from surrounding power utilities.

As for the numbers being the same for hundreds of miles, that is how the power grid works. Power is generated at the plant and transmitted to substations that in turn distribute the power to the end user. Substations can be up to 300 miles from the plant, meaning power generation from a plant is potentially transmitted 600 miles from end to end. Further, because utilities are always guessing at how much they need to generate at any given time, it is common practice for utilities to purchase power from each other when they come up short. There is no guarantee that the power that comes from your outlet was actually generated by your utility. Regions of 100+ miles are likely as granular as they can realistically get with the data.

Without signing up to see more about their methodology, one can only speculate on what data they use to generate the numbers for fossil fuel, but it is far from nearly impossible. There are lots of studies that track pollutants at all levels of oil exploration/extraction/processing/delivery.

ncerna
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: New Comparison site for EV emissions

Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:33 am

All of these are interesting points.
Something else that needs to be taken into consideration is the manufacturing of the vehicle.
Which auto manufacturer used more environmentally friendly methods to produce their vehicle.
Does Chevy use a lot more oil in their manufacturing plants compared to Nissan?
Which company used more recycled materials, or parts that are made domestically?
How was the finished vehicle transported to the dealer? Was it produced overseas and transported in a ship?
Or was it produced locally and transported on a tow truck?
The Chevy Spark EV is a compliance car. This allows Chevy to continue selling huge, gas guzzling trucks without getting dinged by the government. So whatever gas we save by owning a Spark is being cancelled out by the people who buy trucks that get 15MPG.
Is it a more eco friendly choice to buy a Smart electric vehicle? Since all of their cars are small, and get somewhat decent MPG?
Or maybe Tesla owners are the most environmentally friendly people.

SparkE
Posts: 342
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:18 am
Location: SF Bay Area (San Jose, CA)

Re: New Comparison site for EV emissions

Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:26 pm

NORTON wrote:http://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/el ... ONAL/_/_/_

How clean is your Spark EV in your area compared to other cars?
Somehow, all these comparison things somehow forget to include all of the pollution that is produced (and/or energy wasted) when GENERATING GASOLINE.

For example, pollution created when :
- drilling
- moving crude to port
- energy spent pumping onto ship
- energy / pollution moving ship to unload at/near refinery
- pollution created by refinery
- pollution created moving refined product to the petrol/gas station

These sites only compare the pollution created by vehicles while burning fossil fuels. The electricity, once generated, is moved to the "pumping station" with no pollution whatsoever.

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