Spark EV Quick Charging Overview

[gra]

The Spark EV and Quick Charging

Last updated 10/6/15.

Probably more misinformation is given out by salespeople, other dealer personnel and sometimes even GM personnel about the Spark EV and Quick Charging (QCing), using special high voltage Quick Chargers (QC or QCs). In most cases this is due to ignorance; in some, to willful misrepresentation to make a sale. Regardless, at the moment you can't depend on dealers to give you accurate info, so here's what you need to know, current as of 10/15.

Misinformation re the Spark and Quick Charging commonly boils down into one of three general statements:

1. "All Sparks are equipped for Quick Charging."

This is false, and this claim will hopefully fade away now that you can actually get a Spark with the Quick Charging option. Only Spark EVs which are equipped with the factory-installed Quick Charging option, currently priced at $750, can use a QC. Using the standard connector (known as SAE J1772) that comes on the cars, _all_ Spark EVs can charge using what's called Level 1 (or L1 for short) at 120 Volts, like common home outlets; and Level 2 (or L2) at 208 to 240 Volts, like some electric ranges or dryers and most commercial charging sites. On the Spark EV, L2 charging is about 3 times faster than L1, and some salespeople call L2 charging 'quick' or 'fast' charging, either because they don't understand the difference between L2 and Quick Charging, or to make a sale.


2. "The Quick Charging option can be retrofitted after purchase if you decide you need it."

Currently false, and likely to remain so. The CCS Quick Charging option is only available factory-installed, there is currently no ability to install it after purchase. Only Tesla has given owners of Tesla Model S cars the option to retrofit their proprietary SuperChargers.


3. "Sparks equipped with Quick Charging can be used with locally available Quick Chargers (QCs)."

This is possible, but somewhat limited in coverage areas now. There are currently three different, incompatible Quick Charging standards in the U.S. There is no inter-operability between them, and only one adapter currently available: Tesla has an adapter to allow their Model S to use CHAdeMO chargers, which does't help Spark owners. The three Quick Charging standards are:

* SAE J1772-Combo or CCS (short for Combined Charging System). The Spark EV, BMW i3 and VW e-Golf are the currently available cars that use this, the most recently adopted Quick Charging standard. [Updated 9/15/15]: At the moment, there are 309 publicly available CCS QCs in the U.S., [Updated 9/15/15] Clusters of CCS chargers have now appeared in Kansas City, Indianopolis and Minneapolis, the I-25 corridor around Denver, as well as the I-85 corridor between Atlanta and Richmond, and Florida from Tampa north, the I-87 corridor between NYC and Albany, the I-15 corridor between SLC and Ogden, as well as other areas. There are also 19 in Quebec, 2 in Ontario, and 1 each in Nova Scotia and British Columbia, Canada. See below.

* CHAdeMO, numbering [Updated 10/6/15] at least 1,306 in the U.S. and used by the Nissan LEAF, Mitsubishi iMiEV, and the Kia Soul EV, was the first QC standard to be available. Unfortunately, the majority of CHAdeMO QCs in California were installed by Blink, and they have a well-deserved reputation for being out of order (see below).

* Tesla SuperCharger, numbering [Updated 9/15/15] at least 1,446 at 218 locations in the U.S., used only by the Tesla Model S now, by the Model X in 3Q 2015, and presumably all follow-on models.


Who needs the QC option?

If you plan to use your Spark EV solely for commuting and running local errands well within its un-recharged range, say 50 miles or less, and will only charge overnight at home or all-day at work, you don't need QC. There are two cases where having the QC option may be important:

1. All batteries lose capacity as they age. If your current commute is to a distance close to your Spark's maximum un-recharged range now, say 60-90 miles depending on how you drive and local conditions, in a few years you may no longer be able to make it without stopping for a charge. Being able to use a QC, assuming there are any along or near your route, will allow you to continue to use your Spark for your commute with the minimum inconvenience.

2. You want to use the Spark EV for shorter distance trips out of town, beyond its un-recharged range. Being able to use a QC along the way (again, if one's available), will allow you to increase your practical radius in a half hour of charging or so by almost half with a single QC en route, or nearly double it with one QC each way. This is much faster than having to wait for an L2 or L1 charge.


How do you find out if there are Quick Chargers in your area, and which standard they use?

The best and usually most current source is a site called 'Plugshare', http://www.plugshare.com/. To see how to use it to check for both public L2 and CCS sites near you, see the two posts by member 'Nashco' on this page below. Update 5/14/14: Plugshare has now corrected the listings so that SAE Combo Stations are listed under 'High Power Stations' instead of 'Public Stations', so check the 'High Power Stations' box instead of the 'Public Stations' box when following the instructions in Nashco's second post.

Before you make plans based on any station(s), you should click on the individual station icon(s), and when each station page comes up click on 'Show Comments' at the bottom to see if the station is currently functional, and to get a sense of how reliable it's been.


If there aren't any CCS chargers near me now, will there be any in the future, and if so how soon?

That depends on a variety of factors, including where you live, sales volumes, and most importantly manufacturer and government financial support, or lack of it. If you live in the Los Angeles, San Diego, or San Francisco metropolitan areas, and maybe in the San Joaquin Valley, you're in luck. As a condition of a legal settlement with the state, NRG Energy is required to install 200 Quick Chargers total in those areas over the period from 2013 to 2016. Most of the initial 20 or so they installed were CHAdeMO only, but now that the Spark and other CCS-equipped BEVs are entering the market, they will start to install dual CHAdeMO/CCS QCs instead at new sites, and backfit the existing stations with a dual CCS/CHAdeMO in addition to the original CHAdeMO-only charger. Here's a map of the required distribution:

In August 2013, Sacramento Municipal Utility District announced that it contracted with SemaConnect to install and operate several EFACEC Quick Chargers around that city. The plan was that they would initially be CHAdeMO only, but would be upgraded to include CCS. As far as I know none have yet been installed, so hopefully they'll all be dual mode from the start. [Update 5/13/14]: A dual Combo/CHAdeMO QC has now been installed at SMUD headquarters. [Update 9/15/15] Plugshare now shows 53 CCS in Norcal, 76 in SoCal.

[Updated 9/15/15]: Per Plugshare there are now at least 309 CCS-1 QCs in the U.S., including 129 in CA: AZ, 4; CO, 6; CT, 3; FL, 13; GA, 28; HI 2; IL 2; IN 18; KS 6; MA 2; MD 3; ME 1; MI 1; MO 10; MN 17; NC 11; NJ 3; NM 5; NV 1; NY 2; OH 4; OR, 9; PA, 2; SC 4; UT 6; VA 20; VT 2; WA 4; WI 1. [Updated 1/31/15] VW and BMW have announced a plan with Chargepoint to install 100 CCS chargers along the Portland - San Diego and Boston - Wash. D.C. corridors.

Initially, most U.S. QCs (all CHAdeMO) were installed by companies that received government grants to do so. Many of those companies never developed a business model that would let them succeed without government money, so when the grants ran out the companies went under. In many cases the chargers were bought up by another company, but they often go un-maintained so are frequently unavailable.

Absent government funds, most QCs have been funded by companies whose cars can use them, i.e. Nissan for CHAdeMO, and Tesla for their cars. Only Tesla has really figured out to make them pay, by including $2,000 in the price of every car sold to fund their proprietary SuperChargers. That's fine for a car that starts at $70k, but not for one that lists half that or less. Nissan's support has been belated and slow by comparison with Tesla. Most of Nissan's QCs have been installed at dealers, where access to them is often limited. It remains to be seen how much financial and other support Chevy, BMW, VW and other members of the SAE CCS consortium will provide to encourage CCS charger installations. [Update 11/25/14]. Kia, although a CHAdeMO user, is taking the high road and installing dual CHAdeMO/CCS chargers at their dealerships. [Update 1/31/15] As mentioned above, VW and BMW in cooperation with Chargepoint, will be installing dual-standard (CCS/CHAdeMO) chargers along major coastal corridors.

 

[markcmann]

The Spark EV and Quick Charging...

Gra, excellent recap, well done.

 

[cwerdna]

Excellent post, gra! I'm still blown away by the time you spend on MNL yet you don't have an EV. :ugeek: :? (If I had that much interest, I'd have gotten one... and that's where I'm at now.)

I was thinking of trying to consolidate the info into a post but really don't have the time. You've taken an awesome first step! Even what you have now should be REQUIRED reading for ANYONE considering a Spark EV who believes they will need or "requires" DC FCing to support their typical use cases AND all dealers selling the Spark EV.

For #2, I suggest that you break that out into 3 separate bullets to highlight the 3 incompatible standards, for easier readability and lump all the cars for each standard together (e.g. Spark EV, i3, etc. should be mentioned together instead of leaving the i3 and e-Golf until later.)

And, afterwards, add supporting information from http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5554#p5554. Some object to "Frankenplug", so remove that. And seriously, consider adding US sales (since probably everyone here is in the US) data such as from http://insideevs.com/january-2014-plug-in-electric-vehicle-sales-report-card/ somewhere, as supporting data.

Maybe one of us can attach some visual aids re: the SAE combo selector on Plugshare. And, there ought to be a mention that one should drill down into the crowdsourced fast charger entry ratings and comments to see if the DC FC is actually reliable. Those in places like CA have experienced the crappy Blink equipment. Both their L2 EVSEs and CHAdeMO DC FCs seem to be unreliable and not fixed promptly. Even some Nissan dealer CHAdeMO DC FCs are down for weeks. The mere presence of infrastructure doesn't mean that it actually works, is reliable and can be depended upon.

I don't know all the details of the eVgo/NRG settlement as I frankly don't care, but if there is concrete info there about what hope it may bring for J1772 CCS, it should be added.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I disagree with him at this stage, because at least J1772 L1/L2 is a standard in the U.S., and while it would undoubtedly be easier to have just a single QC standard, that's not going to happen for some time. It's no big deal to produce QCs with multiple standard connectors and associated firmware, and while they're undoubtedly somewhat more expensive than those using a single standard, the cost of _any_ QC is so high that the additional increment is unlikely to be the determining factor in financial viability. Right now no one other than Tesla is really making them pay. And even if we do have three standards out there, only Tesla's supports a car that has enough built-in range to make the car viable for longer regional or even out-of-region excursions; the others are all restricted in practice to shorter regional trips.

Ultimately I don't think CHAdeMO is the answer, because there's no overriding technical advantage to using a separate connector for DC QC..

Clearly, even the numerous obtuse folks here on this forum would hopefully agree that Tesla got it mostly right and GM is mostly clueless. The Tesla standard is easy to use and more "fuel nozzle like" than anything else. Combining pins is something that John Q. Public doesn't care about if it was small, lightweight and easy to use.

We might as well give up on EV's right now if either CHAdeMO or Frankenplug are "it". Both are as short sighted as every sub-100 mile EV produced. There is such a tiny subset of the population who will adopt to both the limited range (whether they need it or not, just like 4 wheel drive SUV's) and too long to charge on the road.

The only thing that's somewhat secure is overnight charging at home, but then even that will have wireless competition, or DC competition. Why exactly does every EV have an expensive and heavy onboard charger? Because the charging infrastructure is poor meaning every car needs access to AC power. I think wireless charging will be the norm for overnight within 15 years.

Out on the road, we want something that is double or triple where Tesla is today. I would argue that it should also be hands free (not necessarily wireless, however).

Electricity has to match oil and hydrogen for range and refueling time. It just does.

 

[fengshui]

I split this nice overview of Spark EV Charging into its own topic, as it had little to do with the previous thread.

 

[gra]

Excellent post, gra! I'm still blown away by the time you spend on MNL yet you don't have an EV. :ugeek: :? (If I had that much interest, I'd have gotten one... and that's where I'm at now.)

Although I'm an EV supporter, that doesn't mean I'll buy one when I know none of them (that I can afford) currently meet my needs. I'll just have to wait a few years until prices come down, (winter freeway) range goes up, and the route infrastructure improves to the places I go. In the meantime, I can educate others as to whether a current EV _does_ meet their needs.

I was thinking of trying to consolidate the info into a post but really don't have the time. You've taken an awesome first step! Even what you have now should be REQUIRED reading for ANYONE considering a Spark EV who believes they will need or "requires" DC FCing to support their typical use cases AND all dealers selling the Spark EV.

For #2, I suggest that you break that out into 3 separate bullets to highlight the 3 incompatible standards, for easier readability and lump all the cars for each standard together (e.g. Spark EV, i3, etc. should be mentioned together instead of leaving the i3 and e-Golf until later.)

Done. I've made some minor changes to #1 (see first post), and swapped #s 2 and 3 because I think #3 is a better lead in to what follows.

And, afterwards, add supporting information from http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5554#p5554. Some object to "Frankenplug", so remove that. And seriously, consider adding US sales (since probably everyone here is in the US) data such as from http://insideevs.com/january-2014-plug-in-electric-vehicle-sales-report-card/ somewhere, as supporting data.

I'm hoping to keep the answers to the basic questions shorter than I usually do. My first attempt ran for page after page and included literally everything, but I don't want to scare off the newbies with a multi-page tome that includes dozens of unfamiliar acronyms etc. I'm hoping that we can boil down the section 'above the fold' to the basics, then go into all the dirty details for the people who want it all in the appendices.

Maybe one of us can attach some visual aids re: the SAE combo selector on Plugshare.

That would be helpful, but someone else will need to do it.

And, there ought to be a mention that one should drill down into the crowdsourced fast charger entry ratings and comments to see if the DC FC is actually reliable.

Yes. I've added something to that effect, but will need to go into more detail.

Those in places like CA have experienced the crappy Blink equipment. Both their L2 EVSEs and CHAdeMO DC FCs seem to be unreliable and not fixed promptly. Even some Nissan dealer CHAdeMO DC FCs are down for weeks. The mere presence of infrastructure doesn't mean that it actually works, is reliable and can be depended upon.

I don't know all the details of the eVgo/NRG settlement as I frankly don't care, but if there is concrete info there about what hope it may bring for J1772 CCS, it should be added.

I've added a comment about Blinks. I had planned to cite chapter and verse on them for those who want to know, Nissan's QCs being located at dealers with limited access etc., but it really needs to go in the appendices or we'll lose half the newbies. Same goes for availability on different continents and other such esoterica. I think it's just TMI all at once. Anyway, everyone keep the suggestions coming.

 

[gra]

I disagree with him at this stage, because at least J1772 L1/L2 is a standard in the U.S., and while it would undoubtedly be easier to have just a single QC standard, that's not going to happen for some time. It's no big deal to produce QCs with multiple standard connectors and associated firmware, and while they're undoubtedly somewhat more expensive than those using a single standard, the cost of _any_ QC is so high that the additional increment is unlikely to be the determining factor in financial viability. Right now no one other than Tesla is really making them pay. And even if we do have three standards out there, only Tesla's supports a car that has enough built-in range to make the car viable for longer regional or even out-of-region excursions; the others are all restricted in practice to shorter regional trips.

Ultimately I don't think CHAdeMO is the answer, because there's no overriding technical advantage to using a separate connector for DC QC..

Clearly, even the numerous obtuse folks here on this forum would hopefully agree that Tesla got it mostly right and GM is mostly clueless. The Tesla standard is easy to use and more "fuel nozzle like" than anything else. Combining pins is something that John Q. Public doesn't care about if it was small, lightweight and easy to use.

We might as well give up on EV's right now if either CHAdeMO or Frankenplug are "it". Both are as short sighted as every sub-100 mile EV produced. There is such a tiny subset of the population who will adopt to both the limited range (whether they need it or not, just like 4 wheel drive SUV's) and too long to charge on the road.

The only thing that's somewhat secure is overnight charging at home, but then even that will have wireless competition, or DC competition. Why exactly does every EV have an expensive and heavy onboard charger? Because the charging infrastructure is poor meaning every car needs access to AC power. I think wireless charging will be the norm for overnight within 15 years.

Out on the road, we want something that is double or triple where Tesla is today. I would argue that it should also be hands free (not necessarily wireless, however).

Electricity has to match oil and hydrogen for range and refueling time. It just does.

Personally, I think wireless will be the norm for L2 within 5 years. Convenience, security (vandalism), reliability (no damage to connectors) and liability (tripping hazard) issues will win out over efficiency.

 

[Nashco]

Guys, why does this debate and heavily biased "informing" have to creep into every thread on this board!?!

There's really no need for you to craft some balogna from the top of your head that will be constantly out-of-date with volumes, etc. There's also no need to reference what other manufacturer makes and models do, let the message boards for those cars discuss the specifics for those cars, and general EV websites talk about general EV stuff.

If you really want to help Spark EV buyers/potential buyers and insist on some sort of sticky, I think something like this in a "Frequently Asked Questions" sticky would be helpful for EV rookies:

How can I charge my Spark EV?

AC Level 1: Your Spark EV comes with a Level 1 charge cord, which plugs into a standard household 120V wall outlet and charges your Spark EV from empty to full in about 20 hours (about 5% per hour, or 4 miles of driving range per hour). You should only plug this in to dedicated 120V 15 amp (or greater) circuits; by default, the Spark EV will demand 8 amps, or the user can change the charging configuration to charge at 12 amps if necessary. After each driving cycle the Spark will reset to the default 8 amp setting.

AC Level 2: Your Spark EV is equipped with an on-board 3.3 kW charger. By using a J1772 charging station connected to 208V or 240V power at your home or business place, your Spark EV can charge from empty to full in about 7 hours (about 15% per hour, or 12 miles of driving range per hour). Level 2 charging would typically use a permanently installed charging station, but there are portable stations that can plug into typical household dryer outlet or RV type sockets as well. Residents of California and Oregon with a Spark EV have a special offer available from Bosch for $500 off the purchase of a Level 2 charging station, which makes the station significantly cheaper or even free depending on your preference of charging station. Click this link for more information on the Bosch program:

http://www.pluginnow.com/discount

In order to see what public Level 2 charging stations are available near you, it is best to refer to PlugShare (via plugshare.com or Android and iOS apps) and filter for "EV Plug (J1772)" stations only. In order to do so on plugshare.com you must first select the options shown here and then click "More Options":

Then, you must deselect all options EXCEPT for "EV Plug (J1772)":

This will then give you the opportunity to find Level 2 chargers that are compatible with your Spark EV nearby, as well as view pricing, host company, user reviews, and other relevant information.

 

[Nashco]

Continued, as the site is being goofy with my post:

DC Charging: The Spark EV has an available option for DC charging. By using a DC charger, your Spark EV can charge from empty to 80% in 20 minutes (approximately 65 miles in 20 minutes).

In order to utilize DC charging, your vehicle must have the optional hardware installed when the vehicle is built. This hardware is not standard on all Sparks, so if this fast charging capability is important to you, be sure to buy a vehicle with this option already installed. If you're not sure if the vehicle has this option, there are two ways to tell.

1. Check the charge port on the vehicle itself. If you can flip the orange flap down (shown in this picture) and see a socket there, the vehicle has a DC charge port.

2. If you don't have access to the vehicle, such as for a new vehicle that has not yet been delivered or if you are ordering a new vehicle and the dealer is unsure of this extra option, you can ask if the vehicle has RPO code CBT.

DC charging requires public infrastructure which has much more electrical power available than a typical home or business would. There are also different types of DC charging stations available to the public; the type of DC charger that the Spark EV requires is typically called "SAE Combo". In order to see what SAE Combo stations are available near you, it is best to refer to PlugShare (via plugshare.com or Android and iOS apps) and filter for "SAE Combo" stations only. In order to do so on plugshare.com you must first select the options shown here and then click "More Options":

Then, you must deselect all options EXCEPT for "SAE Combo":

This will then give you the opportunity to find DC chargers that are compatible with your Spark EV nearby, as well as view pricing, host company, user reviews, and other relevant information.

A source of information from Chevy about charging your Spark EV can be found here:

http://www.chevrolet.com/spark-ev-electric-vehicle.html#Chargeitup

A source of similar information provided for GM technicians can be found here:

http://sandyblogs.com/techlink/?p=2874

Since there isn't a "Frequently Asked Questions" section, this is a moot point. I'd at least ask others to stop parroting on and on about OTHER VEHICLES AND OTHER CHARGING METHODS that aren't related to the Spark EV.

Bryce

 

[benwa]

I am beside myself... I can't figure out why Chevrolet would not be able to retrofit Chevy Spark EV'S that don't have the DC Fast Charger. Why would you build a vehicle that can't keep up with the ever-changing times? Why?

I think they should focus on allowing the rear wheels to REGEN while the front wheels drive the vehicle. I was told that there's too much $$$ at stake to allow that to happen and that Oil Companies and Power Companies would not allow that to happen. Just think if your car could someday store enough power to arrive home to plug it in and allow the power to release it's power into the grid?

With that said, I purchased the Spark EV without the DC Fast Charger and my dealership could have sworn that it would have been able to be retrofitted at some point in time. After all, it does have the extra-capped fixture below the original factory plug. I have one thing to say at this time!

Chevrolet EV Engineers need to come up with a way to RETROFIT MY SPARK NOW! So I can drive with suffering from Range Anxiety!

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
I replied to your post at http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5955#p5955, instead of further polluting this thread.

Guys, why does this debate and heavily biased "informing" have to creep into every thread on this board!?!

There's really no need for you to craft some balogna from the top of your head that will be constantly out-of-date with volumes, etc. There's also no need to reference what other manufacturer makes and models do, let the message boards for those cars discuss the specifics for those cars, and general EV websites talk about general EV stuff.

:roll:
Bologna? The purpose of this is to give complete, accurate information about the DC FC story in the US for both pre- and post-sales cases. It seems you'd rather narrowly focus the under 20 J1772 CCS DC FCs in the US and ignore the other 1000+ DC FCs in the US that use two other incompatible standards.

And where would those "general EV websites" be that would inform a potential EV buyer, esp. a Spark EV one about the situation? What are the chances of them stumbling across that and having the light bulb go on in their head about these 3 incompatible standards?

It seems you have an agenda to suppress information.

It is better for the potential buyer to be informed in the event the dealer, auto show rep, friend, coworker, etc. gives them misinformation, leading them to believe there is a ton of compatible DC FC infrastructure (either by intentional lie to make a sale or ignorance) w/the Spark EV.

It is better to go in knowing what typical use cases/needs for a DC FC are and whether those are important to the buyer/lessee. People should be making informed decisions based upon merits and pros/cons, not suppressed/incomplete information. (e.g. someone might like the Spark EV for its size, styling, performance, displays, etc.)

Would you rather them buy a Spark EV AND spending $750 for the port, expecting LOTS of working DC FC insfrastructure only to discover to discover there's almost none? This leads to a pissed off customers and does NOT help EV adoption. And that person will tell others and possibly tell them incorrect information too.

It is better to be informed of proper terminology as usage can be sloppy amongst even EV/PHEV drivers and lead to confusion.

Example 1: At my work, we recently had our first EV/PHEV meeting w/facilities regarding the charging situation @ my work (which actually isn't bad at all), their future plans, etc. Someone brought up DC fast chargers, someone sloppily used the term "Supercharger", etc. I brought up that it'd be a bad idea to install DC FCs as the cheapest one is $15.5K, requiring 480 volt 3-phase power, is CHAdeMO and not all Leafs have the port, not to mention that most of the other plug-ins @ my work don't have it or have no DC FC capability.

A facilities person (who doesn't an EV/PHEV) taking notes sent out some minutes and for the bullet re: DC FC, basically wrote "Not all Leafs have Supercharger ports." :/ Well yeah, NONE of them have it. I sent her an email back educating her on the 3 DC FC standards, how it'd be HIGHLY unlikely we'd install Tesla Superchargers + why it'd be a bad idea to install a CHAdeMO DC FC OR a J1772 CCS DC FC, etc.

Example 2: Recently, someone in the SF Bay LEAFs Facebook group posted a pic of a new CHAdeMO DC FC in Point Reyes. Someone at https://www.facebook.com/groups/BayLeafs/permalink/639263296131335/?comment_id=640110062713325&offset=0&total_comments=22 replied

We don't have the adapter for the Blink QC ($8)- so we used one of the two free plug-ins 1/3 of a mile down the road in the Fairfax town parking lot-across from the coffee shop...

We were confused by this "adapter". Did she not have an RFID card or the port?

They replied "The plug didn't fit into our car. Not sure if we were doing something wrong there?"

We went on to mention CHAdeMO and ask if they had that port on the left. They said no, only 1 port. A Leaf owner didn't even know what it was called and that they didn't have it!

And not too unrelated to the above was this... :lol:

from http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15821.

If you really want to help Spark EV buyers/potential buyers and insist on some sort of sticky, I think something like this in a "Frequently Asked Questions" sticky would be helpful for EV rookies:
...]

The rest of your info and visual aids are very good. Thanks! However, a few points aren't exactly right and some is well beyond "quick charging". That said, an FAQ or something might be good but it's not clear if the QC vs. rest of stuff should be separated/on separate pages.

Level 2 also includes 208 volts, not just 240. Much (most?) commercial power is 208 volts. I confirmed w/the Chargepoint techs that our EVSEs at work run at 208 volts. I'd just say 208/240 volts.

Level 2 charging requires a charging station to be installed, whether it is at your home, office, or public infrastructure

No it doesn't. There are numerous "portable" 208/240 volt EVSEs.

Examples:
http://evsolutions.avinc.com/turbocord
http://evsolutions.avinc.com/products/at_home/plug-in_charging_station
http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product-category/new-products/ - e.g. HCS-40P, LCS-25P, etc.
http://evseupgrade.com/?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=5 - or upgraded versions there
http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=914 - JESLA (a http://shop.teslamotors.com/products/model-s-mobile-connector-bundle w/the Tesla proprietary connector replaced w/a J1772 handle)

Plenty of folks have charged using portable 208/240 volt EVSEs at their own home, via a friend's dryer outlet, RV parks, etc. MANY folks w/the Tesla Model S just use the above mobile connector to charge at 240 volts at home, w/o any sort of installation.

 

[cwerdna]

Gra, I agree about keeping things short and w/o adding TMI.

It would be nice to add supporting info in appendices. I like how you're trying to keep things neutral, despite the complaints from one person here. :roll: One problem w/just indicating car models is that it doesn't provide any context into numbers.

For the 3 standards, it almost sounds like:
- standard 1: 1 car now , 1 coming soon, 1 coming later
- standard 2: 2 cars + 1 more coming soon
- standard 3: 1 car, 2 more coming in a few years

But, there are orders of magnitude differences in installed base and sales volumes of standard 2 or 3 vs. 1, and this has further implications. But yes, probably the numbers or a version of http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5554#p5554 w/o the word "Frankenplug" should go an in appendix.

 

[TonyWilliams]

It appears my posts are being deleted over and over, so I'll repost and see if the same thing happens. We can follow up with Mike on the previous deletes, as there will be a moderate log of each activity.


USA Quick Charge data, sometimes colloquially referred to as "L3"


1. SAE CCS "Frankenplug" or "J1772 DC" - approximately 5 in the USA
up to 100kW eventually, probably limited to 62.5kW
EVs compatible with Frankenplug include:

*GM Spark EV - less than 100 with Frankenplug capability
*BMW i3 (coming 2014)
*VW eGolf (coming 2014)


2. CHAdeMO - 3500 worldwide, 550 in the USA
up to 100kW eventually, currently limited to 62.5kW
EVs compatible with CHAdeMO include:

*Nissan LEAF - over 45,000 in the USA and over 100,000 worldwide
*Nissan e-NV200 (coming 2014)
*Citroen C-Zero - not sold in USA
*Mitsubishi i-MiEV - over 30,000 worldwide with its variants C-Zero & iON
*Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV (coming 2015)
*Mitsubishi Fuso Canter truck
*Peugeot iON - not sold in USA
*Kia Soul EV (coming 2014)
*ZERO motorcycles
*Tesla except Roadster with adaptor


3. Supercharger - 73 stations in the USA, each with 4-8 stalls
up to 150kW eventually, currently limited to 120kW
EVs compatible with Supercharger include:

*Tesla only, except Roadster - 30,000 worldwide

 

[cwerdna]

It appears my posts are being deleted over and over, so I'll repost and see if the same thing happens.

USA Quick Charge data, sometimes colloquially referred to as "L3"
...

I've added the 2 pages of this thread so far to http://archive.org/... We shall see.

 

[TonyWilliams]

It appears my posts are being deleted over and over, so I'll repost and see if the same thing happens.

USA Quick Charge data, sometimes colloquially referred to as "L3"
...

I've added the 2 pages of this thread so far to http://archive.org/... We shall see.

Oh, we will get to the bottom of it quick. I'm a moderator on the Rav4 EV site, so I know exactly how the software works. I've reported that post so that it is flagged, and will create a log of what happens to it.

Somebody also deleted an entire thread that I started. No notice, no email, no explanation. But, I will get one.

Secondly, with an entire thread devoted to "banning me" with personal attacks and the usual childish vile is still up (it does not have a single post from me).

 

[Nashco]

It seems you'd rather narrowly focus the under 20 J1772 CCS DC FCs in the US and ignore the other 1000+ DC FCs in the US that use two other incompatible standards.

While it's true that I have a narrow focus (MYCHEVYSPARKEV.COM) in my information provided, I specifically linked to a wiki link which includes details on SAE Combo as well as competing standards and mentioned that there are different types of DC charging. I also gave the reader a tool that will give them instant feedback of what the exact availability is of chargers for their vehicle in their area at that moment. Why bother confusing new users with information not relevant to the Chevy Spark EV if that's not what they're seeking? Short, simple, to the point, factual, accurate, relevant information was my goal. Not mixing up the issue of charging with which car a person should buy...give them the facts about the Spark EV and let THEM make the decision.

And where would those "general EV websites" be that would inform a potential EV buyer, esp. a Spark EV one about the situation? What are the chances of them stumbling across that and having the light bulb go on in their head about these 3 incompatible standards?

If a person does a search for "what is a fast charger for ev" on google, the first response is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_station

It's the fourth response if they search for "how do you charge an ev"...so not exactly a secret.

I included that link in my own informational post as well. Wikipedia provides a FANTASTIC platform for informative, unbiased, documentation supported, simplified presentation of facts. If you (or anybody else) believes this wiki article is incomplete, by all means you should update it. After all, if your goal is to improve visibility for anybody considering an EV, and somebody types those basic searches into Google, they're going to find those LONG before this site. If somebody finds this site it is because they are looking specifically for information on the Spark EV, which is exactly why my information is catered to that on MYCHEVYSPARKEV.COM.

It seems you have an agenda to suppress information.

It is better for the potential buyer to be informed in the event the dealer, auto show rep, friend, coworker, etc. gives them misinformation, leading them to believe there is a ton of compatible DC FC infrastructure (either by intentional lie to make a sale or ignorance) w/the Spark EV.

It is better to go in knowing what typical use cases/needs for a DC FC are and whether those are important to the buyer/lessee. People should be making informed decisions based upon merits and pros/cons, not suppressed/incomplete information. (e.g. someone might like the Spark EV for its size, styling, performance, displays, etc.)

Would you rather them buy a Spark EV AND spending $750 for the port, expecting LOTS of working DC FC insfrastructure only to discover to discover there's almost none? This leads to a pissed off customers and does NOT help EV adoption. And that person will tell others and possibly tell them incorrect information too.

It seems that you believe you know what people want and need better than they do. I've done nothing but present the facts of different methods to charge a Spark EV, availability of places to charge, and type of equipment required. This is the kind of balogna that isn't necessary (in bold below), and is written with the assumption that "we" know better, assumption everybody is out to get you, information that will be dated very quickly, somebody just plain making stuff up or speculating, something that is not relevant to Spark EV, and assuming you probably don't really know what you want (rather than just providing useful, fact based information):

The Spark EV and Quick Charging

Probably more misinformation is given out by salespeople, other dealer personnel and sometimes even GM personnel about the Spark EV and Quick Charging (QCing), using special high voltage Quick Chargers (QC or QCs). In most cases this is due to ignorance; in some, to wilful misrepresentation to make a sale. Regardless, at the moment you can't depend on dealers to give you accurate info, so here's what you need to know, current as of 2/14.

Misinformation re the Spark and Quick Charging commonly boils down into one of three general statements:

1. "All Sparks are equipped for Quick Charging."

This is false, and this claim will hopefully fade away now that you can actually get a Spark with the Quick Charging option. Only Spark EVs which are equipped with the factory-installed Quick Charging option, currently priced at $750, can use a QC. Using the standard connector (known as J1772) that comes on the car, all Spark EVs can charge using what's called Level 1, or L1 for short (120 Volts, like common home outlets) and Level 2 or L2 (208-240 Volts, like some electric ranges or driers, and most commercial charging sites). On the Spark EV, L2 charging is about 3 times faster than L1, and some salespeople call L2 charging 'quick' or 'fast' charging, either because they don't understand the difference between L2 and Quick Charging, or to make a sale.


2. "The Quick Charging option can be retrofitted after purchase if you decide you need it."

Currently false, and likely to remain so. The CCS Quick Charging option is only available factory-installed, there is currently no ability to install it after purchase. Only Tesla has given owners of Tesla Model S cars the option to retrofit their proprietary SuperChargers.


3. "Sparks equipped with Quick Charging can be used with locally available Quick Chargers (QCs)."

This is possible, but highly unlikely right now. There are currently three different, incompatible Quick Charging standards in the U.S. There is no inter-operability between them, nor any adapters currently available, although that may change. The three Quick Charging standards are:

* SAE-Combo or CCS. The Spark EV is the only currently available car that uses this, the most recently adopted Quick Charging standard. Other soon to appear CCS-equipped cars are the BMW i3, which should go on sale in the U.S. in a few months, followed somewhat later in the year by the VW e-Golf. At the moment, there are only 10-20 publicly available CCS QCs in the U.S., mostly in California and Arizona; I know of none in Oregon or Washington right now. The vast majority of U.S. QCs now are one of the other two standards, so chances are the existing QCs near you cannot be used with your Spark EV, although future QCs may be (see below).

* CHAdeMO, numbering 554+ and used by the Nissan LEAF, Mitsubishi iMiEV, and soon an EV version of the Kia Soul, was the first QC standard to be available. Unfortunately, the majority of CHAdeMO QCs in California were installed by Blink, and they have a well-deserved reputation for being out of order (see below).

* Tesla SuperCharger, numbering 486+, used only by the Tesla Model S now, by the Model X in early 2015, and presumably all follow-on models.


Who needs the QC option?

If you plan to use your Spark EV solely for commuting and running local errands well within its un-recharged range, say 50 miles or less, and will only charge overnight at home or all-day at work, you don't need QC. There are two cases where having the QC option may be important:

1. All batteries lose capacity as they age. If your current commute is to a distance close to your Spark's maximum un-recharged range now, say 60-90 miles depending on how you drive and local conditions, in a few years you may no longer be able to make it without stopping for a charge. Being able to use a QC, assuming there are any along or near your route, will allow you to continue to use your Spark for your commute with the minimum inconvenience.

2. You want to use the Spark EV for shorter distance trips out of town, beyond it's un-recharged range. Being able to use a QC along the way (again, if one's available), will allow you to increase your practical radius in a half hour of charging or so by almost half with a single QC enroute, or nearly double it with one QC each way. This is much faster than having to wait for an L2 or L1 charge.


How do you find out if there are Quick Chargers in your area, and which standard they use?

The best and usually most current source is a site called 'Plugshare': http://www.plugshare.com/

When the site opens, it should show a map of your local area; if not, enter your address, zip or just city name in the box at the upper left. Either way, the map should show all the charging stations in your area. To see only the Quick Chargers, move your cursor to the drop-down box in the upper right of the map, which has four check boxes. Un-check the boxes labelled 'Residential Chargers' and 'Public Stations', and if you wish also 'In Use' stations although this isn't essential. This will give you a map showing only Quick Chargers. You then need to click on 'more options' at the bottom of the larger box, or else on the gear wheel icon just left of center on the task bar. Doing either will open up the 'Settings' menu. Under 'Region' it should read 'North America', change it if it doesn't. In the 'Outlets (Local)' section, un-check every box except the one labelled 'SAE Combo', then close the whole box and give the map time to refresh. It should now show you all the CCS (SAE Combo) chargers in the area (owing to the very recent addition of the SAE Combo option, the few CCS sites aren't yet shown. That will get worked out in the next few months). Chances are there will be few, if any. You can, if you wish, select 'Quick Charge' (CHAdeMO) or 'Tesla SuperCharger' instead, and see if there are any of those in the area. But remember, if you have a Spark you can't use those; the sole reason for doing this is to see if a BEV (Battery Electric Vehicle) using one of those other Quick Charger standards (see above) might be a better choice for you.
[Add info about how to check station comments for reliability]


Likelihood of CCS QCs being installed in the future, and where

[Add this info]

I included your input and updated my summary to include 208/240 and also portable versus permanent Level 2. I'm trying to keep this very factual, relevant to the Spark EV (MYCHEVYSPARKEV.COM) and letting the reader determine what this means for their scenario.

Bryce

 

[TonyWilliams]

The folks who built the Sun Country Highway through Canada are now installing DC quick quick charging stations there! The interesting part for this forum is that those stations will have both the Spark EV compatible Frankenplug, as well as the world standard CHAdeMO plug.

The other interesting bit is that there isn't a Spark EV in the whole country.

 

[gatedad]

Tony: That's a rather bizarre but sad fact, that there are combo units in Canada, but no Chevy Spark EV. Maybe Chevy will reconsider and allow single owner purchases or leases, but also maybe the folks in Canada who are putting up the highway are anticipating the BMW and VW EV models? Frankly, I find that to be optimistic thinking to the extreme, and I wish that it were true(if only to help spread EV adoption)but I doubt it. I don't understand Chevy's logic of doing a pretty good job on a decent little EV(remember I have the Mitsu "I" as a comparison)and then not finishing things right, by adding in useable QC option, 6 KW on board chargers and widespread marketing of the car. As I have stated before, I really have no preference(from a technical standpoint) of one format over the other. But I SURE don't want to see competing standards...how can that ever help(unless it can be objectively shown that one is clearly superior to the other). EV's are on the verge of a public relations breakthrough, as more and more people appreciate them for what they do well. Where they fall short(range/battery size and price) are slowly being addressed. All it would have taken in the Spark's case is an intention to make it accessable to the most number of people. A car that size is going to be a challenge for a lot of people, but it would have its buyers, if the other aspects were addressed.
Lou

 

[Anonymous]

For clarity, its important to mantain use of the name "Frankenplug" in relation to J1772 CCS. Reality is that J1772 is a wide standard and most obviously refers to low power Yazaki AC plug, ie Nissan LEAF AC, GM Volt AC, Kia Soul EV's AC, Ford Focus EV's AC etc etc

A good example is Kia Soul EV http://www.netcarshow.com/kia/2015-soul_ev/
like the LEAF, the Soul has a COMBinatiOn plug of 1772 AC and Chademo

which to newbies appears like 1772 Combo plug, but shouldn't

its kinda like the GOM in the Nissan LEAF, but at least that probably were originally calibrated to Japanese driving conditions, it needs to be clearly expressed.

 

[gra]

Guys, why does this debate and heavily biased "informing" have to creep into every thread on this board!?!

There's really no need for you to craft some balogna from the top of your head that will be constantly out-of-date with volumes, etc. There's also no need to reference what other manufacturer makes and models do, let the message boards for those cars discuss the specifics for those cars, and general EV websites talk about general EV stuff.

If you really want to help Spark EV buyers/potential buyers and insist on some sort of sticky, I think something like this in a "Frequently Asked Questions" sticky would be helpful for EV rookies:

Very nicely done (better than my attempt); was the verbiage lifted from a Chevy site (don't know if that would cause copyright issues), or is it yours? Something like a FAQ is what I intend. However, I do disagree with you about the need to include info about other cars, QC standards, and current as well as likely future availability here. I'm brand neutral, i.e. I have no loyalty to a particular EV. My intent is to inform potential buyers which is the best EV choice _for them_, not just what the SPARK EV's capabilities are. I would much rather have someone see what ALL their options are in one place, and the advantages/disadvantages of each, rather than providing lots of links they have to follow. Then they can make a fully-informed choice as to the most appropriate EV in their specific circumstances, instead of trying to shoehorn them into any specific one just because that's the name of the forum.

My interest is to ensure satisfied EV ownership regardless of brand, rather than just improving the odds that a Spark owner will be informed of the Spark's options, but still have an unsatisfactory EV ownership experience because they bought the wrong car. And if no EV will give them a satisfactory owner experience right now, I'd much rather dissuade them from getting one so as not to sour them for all time; EVs will only improve.

As I've said, much of this info doesn't need to be in the basics, but in the appendices that provide the info for those who want to know all the whys and wherefores.

The only change I think you should make is to the first section below, where I recommend changing '15 amp circuits' to '15 or 20 Amp circuits', as either is acceptable.

How can I charge my Spark EV?

AC Level 1: Your Spark EV comes with a Level 1 charge cord, which plugs into a standard household 120V wall outlet and charges your Spark EV from empty to full in about 20 hours (about 5% per hour, or 4 miles of driving range per hour). You should only plug this in to dedicated 120V 15 amp circuits; by default, the Spark EV will demand 8 amps, or the user can change the charging configuration to charge at 12 amps if necessary. After each driving cycle the Spark will reset to the default 8 amp setting.