Why is Spark EV sales so poor?

[Nashco]

Again, GM, the company deciding to contribute nothing to building out Combo1 standard infrastructure is also a company decision.

When you say things as though they are a fact, that does not make it an actual fact. You're wrong, as GM HAS contributed to building out SAE Combo chargers. For example, the first one I used on my Spark EV was made possible by funds from GM:

http://www.pdx.edu/electricavenue/pgechevyevent

PGE and Chevy spearheaded the effort to bring SAE Combo EV Quick Chargers to Oregon. Chevy funded the chargers, while PGE helped convene key parties, identified locations and installed the chargers.

This is one of seven that went live in Oregon this summer. GM provided funding for five out of seven of these chargers. I've used all seven of them.

http://portlandtribune.com/wh/229879-93621-fast-charger-comes-to-electric-avenue

Chevrolet has funded a network of the new chargers...

So, if this isn't GM "contributing" I guess I don't know what is. I'll be really impressed if you acknowledge spewing falsehoods, but I predict you'll ignore that and just change your tune to GM not doing enough instead of GM not doing anything.

Bryce

 

[cwerdna]

Again, GM, the company deciding to contribute nothing to building out Combo1 standard infrastructure is also a company decision.

When you say things as though they are a fact, that does not make it an actual fact. You're wrong, as GM HAS contributed to building out SAE Combo chargers. For example, the first one I used on my Spark EV was made possible by funds from GM:
...
So, if this isn't GM "contributing" I guess I don't know what is. I'll be really impressed if you acknowledge spewing falsehoods, but I predict you'll ignore that and just change your tune to GM not doing enough instead of GM not doing anything.

Assuming the above are correct, I stand corrected.

How about any in California?

But ok, they've contributed little in this area, be it infrastructure or actually selling more DC FC capable cars (in terms of both volume and # of models). They've have no other mass-market consumer DC FC capable vehicles in the US. Volt? Nope. ELR? Nope.

 

[cwerdna]

No I think you are. CHAdeMO was backed by a huge power supplier in Japan. If it wasn't pushed by them I doubt it'd have gained any more traction than any other standard. That's what you don't seem to understand. The sales of CHAdeMO equipped vehicles has nothing to do with how good the standard is.

TEPCO isn't a power supplier in the US. I don't think I ever stated the CHAdeMO standard was particularly good. In fact, at http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7624#p7624, I mentioned in unintuitive CHAdeMO handle design of the early (and still in wide use) Yazaki handles w/the big black handle.

 

[TonyWilliams]

No I think you are. CHAdeMO was backed by a huge power supplier in Japan. If it wasn't pushed by them I doubt it'd have gained any more traction than any other standard. That's what you don't seem to understand. The sales of CHAdeMO equipped vehicles has nothing to do with how good the standard is.

TEPCO isn't a power supplier in the US. I don't think I ever stated the CHAdeMO standard was particularly good. In fact, at http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7624#p7624, I mentioned in unintuitive CHAdeMO handle design of the early (and still in wide use) Yazaki handles w/the big black handle.

It is common to confuse the extremely poor Yazaki design plug as "CHAdeMO".

All those ridiculous levers and buttons are not in the spec. There are PLENTY of other plugs available that are fantastic, including the newest design from Yazaki.

The CHAdeMO standard is actually quite good, with a few obvious exceptions. In the heavy electric power industry, green means safe and red means unsafe. So the "off" button is green. It doesn't work in the consumer world.

Both Frankenplug and CHAdeMO inlets are crazy too big. Tesla smokes both designs by a large margin.

I prefer CAN bus communication that CHAdeMO uses, because that's also what cars have used for 30 years. Frankenplug uses a hodgepodge of communication methods that screams "committee design".

Really, that's it in a nutshell. Any of them can output 100kW or more. The standard doesn't affect that; the connection pins and cable size does.

 

[TonyWilliams]

This is one of seven that went live in Oregon this summer. GM provided funding for five out of seven of these chargers. I've used all seven of them.

http://portlandtribune.com/wh/229879-93621-fast-charger-comes-to-electric-avenue

Chevrolet has funded a network of the new chargers...

So, if this isn't GM "contributing" I guess I don't know what is. I'll be really impressed if you acknowledge spewing falsehoods, but I predict you'll ignore that and just change your tune to GM not doing enough instead of GM not doing anything.

Bryce

While I expect the usual hate-fest answer out of you (and the other usual suspects), why do you think GM spent the money in Oregon (assuming that you're even right), and not California?

 

[gra]

This is one of seven that went live in Oregon this summer. GM provided funding for five out of seven of these chargers. I've used all seven of them.

http://portlandtribune.com/wh/229879-93621-fast-charger-comes-to-electric-avenue

Chevrolet has funded a network of the new chargers...

So, if this isn't GM "contributing" I guess I don't know what is. I'll be really impressed if you acknowledge spewing falsehoods, but I predict you'll ignore that and just change your tune to GM not doing enough instead of GM not doing anything.

Bryce

While I expect the usual hate-fest answer out of you (and the other usual suspects), why do you think GM spent the money in Oregon (assuming that you're even right), and not California?

Ooh, ooh, I know! Why would they do so, when eVgo is on the hook for 200 QCs here? The Department of Redundancy Department is down the hall I'd much rather see them spend the money where it will do the most good, and at the lowest cost to them. Personally, until considerably longer range affordable BEVs arrive with Gen 2, I think the justification for an extensive deployment of QCs is pretty weak. Put them one range circle out around major metro areas, sure, but don't try to pretend that the current limited range cars will be heavily used for road trips. [Edit] Hey, an eVgo dual-standard's just popped up on Plugshare on Highway 99 in Atwater. That's one out of fifteen for the San Joaquin Valley.

 

[jsca72]

I've been so busy I haven't been on the forum lately so I'm just seeing and joining this thread.

Chevy doesn't let anyone know about this car! How can a car sell if you don't tell anyone it even exists? If I hadn't seen a positive mention of it in an article I was reading about the FitEV, I would have never known about this. I had to go 70 miles to get mine. The local Chevy dealers just gave me the run-around.

I do not believe people are turned off by the size. I have had many people ask me if I like my car assuming I'm driving a gas fueled vehicle. They like the idea of a little commuter car for a second car.

Compared to the Fiat 500e, the Spark has so much more room. The Fiat is a very cute car, but I like mine just fine.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Starting in 2012, the six "Large Vehicle Manufacturers" (LVM) were required to sell a minimum number of California Air Resources Board - Zero Emission Vehicle (CARB-ZEV) qualifying vehicles for compliance in California:


Manufacturer - ZEV used for CARB compliance:

Ford - Focus EV
Honda - Fit EV
Chrysler/Fiat - 500e
Toyota - Rav4 EV, iQ EV
GM Chevrolet - Spark EV
Nissan - LEAF


For model years 2015 and beyond, both LVM and Intermediate Vehicle Manufacturers (IVM) must comply with CARB-ZEV:


BMW - i3
Fiat/Chrysler - 500e
Ford - Focus EV, hydrogen by 2018?
General Motors - Spark EV, potential "200 mile EV moon-shot" or hydrogen by 2018?
Honda - absolutley hydrogen
Hyundai - absolutley hydrogen
Kia - Soul EV
Mazda - Demio EV
Daimler/Mercedes - B-Class ED, Smart ED, hydrogen by 2018
Nissan - LEAF, eNV-2000
Toyota - absolutley hydrogen
Volkswagen - eGolf


Auto manufacturers that are NOT subject to CARB-ZEV due to their small sales in California. These additional manufacturers are required to comply with the ZEV requirements, but would be allowed to meet their obligation with Plug-In Hybrids (PHEV):

Tesla
Mitsubishi
Fuji Heavy Industry (Subaru)
Jaguar Land Rover
Volvo


Model Year - ZEV Credit Percent Requirement

2012 ------------ 0.79%
2018 ------------ 2.00%
2019 ------------ 4.00%
2020 ------------ 6.00%
2021 ------------ 8.00%
2022 ----------- 10.00%
2023 ----------- 12.00%
2024 ----------- 14.00%
2025 ----------- 16.00%

 

[SteveC5088]

Tony, I appreciate the ZEV Credit Percent Requirement numbers. Several questions:

1. Do cars like Chevy Volt and BMW i3 that have onboard range-extender motors count in the numbers?

2. Does that 2012 number ( 0.79% ) stay flat up to 2018, or does it climb each year? If so, what are the numbers?

3. What are the real numbers of vehicles required to be sold ( 0.79% of what )?

4. Can the LVMs buy credits from companies like Tesla?

Thanks!

 

[gra]

Tony, I appreciate the ZEV Credit Percent Requirement numbers. Several questions:

1. Do cars like Chevy Volt and BMW i3 that have onboard range-extender motors count in the numbers?

2. Does that 2012 number ( 0.79% ) stay flat up to 2018, or does it climb each year? If so, what are the numbers?

3. What are the real numbers of vehicles required to be sold ( 0.79% of what )?

4. Can the LVMs buy credits from companies like Tesla?

Thanks!

You can go directly to the source for answers: http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/zevprog.htm

BTW, #4 is yes, and this link, http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/zevcredits/2013zevcredits.htm

has the credit balances up through September 30th, as well as the number of sales by large and intermediate volume manufacturers for 2013.

[Edit] Read this GCC article too:

California ARB mods to ZEV regulations for IVMs would result in ~1.9% drop in total ZEV/TZEV units 2018-2025; no impact on air quality requirements

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/10/20141020-zev.html

 

[cwerdna]

1. Do cars like Chevy Volt and BMW i3 that have onboard range-extender motors count in the numbers?

You can go directly to the source for answers: http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/zevprog.htm

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/factsheets/zev_tutorial.pdf from http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/factsheets/factsheets.htm might prove useful. Page 50 discusses ZEVs, Enhanced AT PZEV, AT PZEV, etc.

Examples of a few of these (nowhere near complete);
ZEV: obvious: pure BEVs and hydrogen FCEVs
Enhanced AT PZEV: '12+ Volt (http://green.autoblog.com/2011/11/16/new-enhat-pzev-chevy-volt-ready-for-california-hov-access-extra/), Plugin Prius
AT PZEV: Prius (been this way since 04), Nissan Altima Hybrid
PZEV: Tons of these exist. I drove a Ford Focus PZEV ages ago. Subuaru prominently advertises/puts badges on their cars about this.

More examples at http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm

Please note that the new terminology for Enhanced Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emission Vehicle (AT PZEV) is Transitional Zero Emission Vehicle (TZEV). TZEVs meet the same certification requirements and qualify for the Clean Air Sticker

Tony has posted a link to this useful Toyota page before: http://www.toyota.com/esq/vehicles/regulatory/carb-mandate-for-zero-emission-vehicles.html.

 

[SteveC5088]

gra and cwerdna:

Thanks for the links. I have looked at some, and they are long and wordy. I am sure I could find the answers, but it would take me hours to find.

I was hoping someone more knowledgeable than I could maybe give some brief and easier to understand answers.

 

[cwerdna]

gra and cwerdna:

Thanks for the links. I have looked at some, and they are long and wordy. I am sure I could find the answers, but it would take me hours to find.

I was hoping someone more knowledgeable than I could maybe give some brief and easier to understand answers.

Take a look at the FAQ at the bottom of http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/zevcredits/2013zevcredits.htm, which also points to the tutorial PDF at http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/factsheets/zev_tutorial.pdf. Read http://www.toyota.com/esq/vehicles/regulatory/carb-mandate-for-zero-emission-vehicles.html. Skim http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=379.

I don't know all the details (nor do I care that much) as the subject is rather complicated. From skimming, I feel these are key slides (pages of the PDF): 39 thru 43, 46, skim 48-52, skim 68-71. I already gave examples of PZEVs, AT-PZEVs and enhanced AT-PZEVs.

Back to the table of credits at http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=379, obviously, most BEVs sold in CA would fall into the type I or I.5 category, except Teslas.

Someone (Tony?) can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Tesla did battery swapping (demo only, so far) in order to get "fast refueling" credit and thus more ZEV credits per vehicle. And, many of the automakers (e.g. Toyota) are chasing after hydrogen and poo-pooing BEVs because of the 9 credits for hydrogen FCEVs.

From a quick Google search for site:.ca.gov "fast refueling", it appears that definition has been a moving target.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Please read this article to understand the CARB-ZEV balances of the various manufacturers:

http://insideevs.com/zev-credit-update-nissan-pushes-pass-tesla-credits-transferred/

Yes, Tesla sells ZEV credits. So does NIssan... lots of them.

Tesla battery swapping was demonstrated to CARB, however CARB has subsequently (spring 2014) withdrawn the 7 credits for each "300 mile range" car with "fast refueling" capability for battery swaps. I concur with this, since Tesla never pursued actually installation the swap stations. But, that will change in the next few months when the first battery swap station opens in Harris Ranch, California, at a former car wash.

 

[TonyWilliams]

1. Do cars like Chevy Volt and BMW i3 that have onboard range-extender motors count in the numbers?

Sure, but not for ZEV. Those would be other categories.

2. Does that 2012 number ( 0.79% ) stay flat up to 2018, or does it climb each year? If so, what are the numbers?

Model Year - ZEV Credit Percent Requirement

2012 ------------ 0.79%
2018 ------------ 2.00%
2019 ------------ 4.00%
2020 ------------ 6.00%
2021 ------------ 8.00%
2022 ----------- 10.00%
2023 ----------- 12.00%
2024 ----------- 14.00%
2025 ----------- 16.00%

3. What are the real numbers of vehicles required to be sold ( 0.79% of what )?

0.79% credit until 2018 model year. So, a Spark EV earns three credits when sold and registered in California, or leased for a minimum three years and registered in California. The compliance periods are three years. For 2012-2014, GM will likely sell 150,000 cars per year in California, so 0.79% of that is 1185 credits that GM must earn each of those years.

With a Spark EV, that means:

1185 / 3 credits per = 395 cars each year, divided by 12 months = 33 cars per month.


Does the low Spark EV sales volume make sense now?



This is where one of our several forum "that guy" usually pops up with some bizarre hate rhetoric to claim that GM is going to sell the Spark EV everywhere, I'm an idiot, everybody should love Frankenplug, etc. But, now you're informed, at least.

The good news for the hydrogen auto maker camp is that they managed to get themselves 9 credits per car!!! What the so-called future Sonic EV with "200 mile" range tells me is that GM isn't ready for hydrogen. That is a lot of additional work and expense to only earn 4 credits per car, vice 3 credits for the Spark EV with "100 mile" range.

4. Can the LVMs buy credits from companies like Tesla?!

All manufacturers who have built ZEV's and sold them in California are eligible. Even bankrupt CODA can sell their credits.

 

[SteveC5088]

Does the low Spark EV sales volume make sense now?

Yep. Pretty much explains everything. They are selling more than they are required, so why spend on advertising?

And thanks for answering my questions.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Does the low Spark EV sales volume make sense now?

Yep. Pretty much explains everything. They are selling more than they are required, so why spend on advertising?

And thanks for answering my questions.

Compliance cars aren't normally advertised, unless it's to tell everybody how "green" the manufacturer is.

For 2015 and beyond, from CARB:

"BMW, Chrysler, Ford, General Motors, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, Mercedes, Nissan, Toyota, and Volkswagen must comply with the new requirements. Four additional manufacturers would also be required to comply with the ZEV requirements, but would be allowed to meet their obligation with PHEVs."

For 2012-2014, 12% of production must meet Yearly ZEV requirements (including ZEV's, Enhanced AT PZEVs, ATPZEVs and PZEVs). Of that 12%, 0.79% must be ZEV.

Any type of ZEV may be used

Type V - 300+ miles range "hydrogen" ---- Credit per vehicle: 9**
Type V - 300+ miles range "fast refueling" - Credit per vehicle: 7
Type IV - 200+ miles range "fast refueling" - Credit per vehicle: 5
Type III - 100+ miles range "fast refueling" - Credit per vehicle: 4
Type III - 200+ miles range -------------- Credit per vehicle: 4
Type II - 100+ miles range --------------- Credit per vehicle: 3
Type I.5 - 75-100 miles range ----------- Credit per vehicle: 2.5
Type I - 50-75 miles range --------------- Credit per vehicle: 2

***********

900,000 cars that are sold in California by Toyota for three model years, 2012-2014, multiplied by 0.79% equals 7110 credits for CARB-ZEV that need to be earned, and each Rav4 EV is 3 credits per the chart above.

Therefore, 7110 divided by 3 = 2370 minimum ZEV cars over all three model years, 2012-2014. Toyota built about 2600 Rav4 EV's, however a number of those were sold out-of-state until Toyota stopped that in October 2013.

For model year 2015 and beyond, Toyota will use a hydrogen car for CARB-ZEV compliance at 9 credits per car. That means they only have to sell 790 cars over the three model years, 2015-2017. That's only 263 cars per year, or less than 25 per month!!!

Also, after 2017, when other manufacturers are required to sell in all CARB-ZEV states, auto manufacturers like Toyota, Honda and Hyundai are allowed to sell only in California, as hydrogen is exempt from the "Traveling Provision" to sell in the other CARB-ZEV states.


CARB-ZEV - California’s ZEV program has now been adopted by the states of Connecticut, Maryland, Massachusetts, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island and Vermont. These states, known as the “Section 177 states,” have chosen to adopt California's air quality standards in lieu of federal requirements as authorized under Section 177 of the federal Clean Air Act. Additionally, California’s GHG standards are now federal law. Maine and New Jersey are participating with ZEV initiatives, but are not signatory CARB-ZEV states.

 

[buickanddeere]

I'm going to feeli guilty now when reminding everyone that the Spark EV is sort for sale across all of Canada for "fleet". Have four GM vehicles licensed and in your name then the volt will be the 5th or more to quality you as a fleet operator.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I'm going to feeli guilty now when reminding everyone that the Spark EV is sort for sale across all of Canada for "fleet". Have four GM vehicles licensed and in your name then the volt will be the 5th or more to quality you as a fleet operator.

Ya, I'd love to know what box that ticks in Canada. Toyota sells their Scion iQ EV for "fleet use" in the USA for the past several years.... all 92 of them.

38 mile EPA range !!!

The world's worst EV from any major auto manufacturer. Yes, they get a special fleet credit for these "sales". I'm confident that something similar is in play in Canada.

 

[cwerdna]

I'm going to feeli guilty now when reminding everyone that the Spark EV is sort for sale across all of Canada for "fleet". Have four GM vehicles licensed and in your name then the volt will be the 5th or more to quality you as a fleet operator.

Ya, I'd love to know what box that ticks in Canada. Toyota sells their Scion iQ EV for "fleet use" in the USA for the past several years.... all 92 of them.

With a sales model like that, I wouldn't be surprised if the Spark EV sells in Canada in the single digits per month, on average, possibly even 5 or less/month, on average.

Just look at Canadian Leaf sales at http://nissannews.com/en-CA/nissan/canada/channels/Sales-Reports-Canada/releases/nissan-group-reports-december-and-2013-year-end-u-s-sales and http://nissannews.com/en-CA/nissan/canada/channels/Sales-Reports-Canada/releases/nissan-group-reports-september-canadian-sales, for comparison.

Look at US sales at http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/. In a single month in the US, on average, the Leaf sells 3x the number that have sold in Canada from the entire period of January thru September 2014.