evboy
Posts: 189
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:05 am

Miles vs age on battery degrading question

Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:34 pm

I'm looking at a 2014 spark ev. u can buy them on carmax for 10500. My question is i only drive about 3500 miles a year. i was concerned, if i buy a 2014 spark with a123 batteries in them, they wont have a replacement, since its not a LG battery like 2015. Should i quit worrying since 10 years of driving is only adding 35000 miles to it? will my battery still hold a good range with only 35k added or will it lose alot of range anyway after 10 years because the battery aged 10 years. If I by a used one with 15k miles on it, it will only have 50k on it in 2027. What do u guys think. Should i buy a 2015 instead which cost more but has a LG battery in it. Will the battery degrade with age even if I dont put alot of miles on it? Will a 2014 spark ev with 50k miles on it today have the same range as a 2014 spark ev with 50k miles on it in 2027 ?

Also, the Nissan leaf has completely collapsed in resale value. U can buy a 2013 for 6500. do u see the spark dropping like that or is it exclusive to the leaf since they didnt use liquid cooling on their battery.

NORTON
Posts: 1230
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 5:52 am
Location: KC,MO

Re: Miles vs age on battery degrading question

Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:18 am

You raise some interesting questions.
AFAIK, there is 'shelf life' and 'usage life' with Li-ion batteries.
Degradation is just a fact of life with batteries of any chemistry.

I started to record it on my phone. I have dozens of pics of the displays at shutdown when more that 50% has been used.
I have the spread sheet ready with 1 row of data. Some snowy boring day I'll enter all the data I have. I started late. I don't have any from when it was a newer car.
I'm still not finding an exact answer for kWh rating of the '14 pack, but it appears to be bigger than the '15, correct?

Why worry about an event 8 yrs out? You'd be a very gentle user.
Some data shows shelf life is longer if not stored at 100% SOC. If you are not dealing with extremes in temp, you could leave it unplugged and not constantly at 100%.

I wonder if: externally the packs are identical and the power and data connections and the coolant connections are the same on both years.
Hopefully none of us will be reporting on this issue for a long, long time. :mrgreen:
Used '14 2LT w/ DCFC. +71 K miles.
Mostly free charging! Only one LONG visit to the shop....
GM needs Modern Troubleshooting tools for Modern EV's.
3 step Trouble Tree, 2nd guess not covered by warranty and cost $800. 3rd guess fixed the problem.

SparkE
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:18 am
Location: SF Bay Area (San Jose, CA)

Re: Miles vs age on battery degrading question

Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:18 pm

You can also avoid filling to 100% by using 'departure time' charging mode, and setting the departure time to be later than you actually leave. For example, if you always leave the house at 8:30 AM, set 'departure' at 9:30 and if you leave at 8:30 your battery will be at about 85% SoC. If you remember to unplug on the weekends around 8:30-9:00, you'll never fully charge the battery.

kevin
Posts: 125
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:52 am
Location: Los Gatos

Re: Miles vs age on battery degrading question

Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:55 pm

evboy wrote:I'm looking at a 2014 spark ev. u can buy them on carmax for 10500. My question is i only drive about 3500 miles a year. i was concerned, if i buy a 2014 spark with a123 batteries in them, they wont have a replacement, since its not a LG battery like 2015. Should i quit worrying since 10 years of driving is only adding 35000 miles to it? will my battery still hold a good range with only 35k added or will it lose alot of range anyway after 10 years because the battery aged 10 years. If I by a used one with 15k miles on it, it will only have 50k on it in 2027. What do u guys think. Should i buy a 2015 instead which cost more but has a LG battery in it. Will the battery degrade with age even if I dont put alot of miles on it? Will a 2014 spark ev with 50k miles on it today have the same range as a 2014 spark ev with 50k miles on it in 2027 ?

Also, the Nissan leaf has completely collapsed in resale value. U can buy a 2013 for 6500. do u see the spark dropping like that or is it exclusive to the leaf since they didnt use liquid cooling on their battery.
This is the capacity of my 2014 Spark EV over 3 years.

The graph was created from readings off the energy screen after discharges of greater than 50%.

I was disappointed at the level of degradation.

kevin
Image

SparkevBlogspot
Posts: 499
Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 12:19 pm

Re: Miles vs age on battery degrading question

Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:41 pm

Maybe 2014 degrade quicker than 2015? I measured my 2015 few months ago by charging to full and taking a reading at every 1% or 0.1kWh used and plotted to find capacity at 100%. I got 18.1 kWh at 13K miles. More recently I again charged full and took 4 data points (about 20%, 50%, 60% 80%), and it came out to be 18.3 kWh (yes, higher, but probably not as accurate). It seems degradation after 1.5 years and hundreds of DCFC doesn't affect battery capacity much.

But then, my usage pattern is very different from yours, though I think I'm more abusive in that I drive 2000 ft uphill high speed on almost every drive session.

MrDRMorgan
Posts: 977
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:27 am
Location: Manteca, California

Re: Miles vs age on battery degrading question

Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:34 pm

kevin wrote:
evboy wrote:I'm looking at a 2014 spark ev. u can buy them on carmax for 10500. My question is i only drive about 3500 miles a year. i was concerned, if i buy a 2014 spark with a123 batteries in them, they wont have a replacement, since its not a LG battery like 2015. Should i quit worrying since 10 years of driving is only adding 35000 miles to it? will my battery still hold a good range with only 35k added or will it lose alot of range anyway after 10 years because the battery aged 10 years. If I by a used one with 15k miles on it, it will only have 50k on it in 2027. What do u guys think. Should i buy a 2015 instead which cost more but has a LG battery in it. Will the battery degrade with age even if I dont put alot of miles on it? Will a 2014 spark ev with 50k miles on it today have the same range as a 2014 spark ev with 50k miles on it in 2027 ?

Also, the Nissan leaf has completely collapsed in resale value. U can buy a 2013 for 6500. do u see the spark dropping like that or is it exclusive to the leaf since they didnt use liquid cooling on their battery.
This is the capacity of my 2014 Spark EV over 3 years.

The graph was created from readings off the energy screen after discharges of greater than 50%.

I was disappointed at the level of degradation.

kevin
Image
I have been collecting Energy Info for my 2014 Spark EV 2LT since March 2016. The results for 57 charging sessions fall almost exactly on Kevin's graph for the interval of 4500 miles to 8000 miles. My data shows a battery capacity drop of .3 kwh for the 3500 mile interval. My 2015 Spark EV 2LT actually shows a .3 kwh increase in battery capacity for 70 charging sessions between the interval 8500 to 14000 miles.

evboy
Posts: 189
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:05 am

Re: Miles vs age on battery degrading question

Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:59 pm

sounds like the lg battery is better. i assumed that since they are a huge company and a123 was a startup. lg is a technology god and makes tvs cell phones batteries.... u name it. i guess i should stick to 2015. maybe i wait for june for a little more depreciation. i hate buying a car that isnt at least 3 years old.

also do u see it collapsing in price like the Leaf. They are giving 2013 leafs away. buying a new leaf will go down as the worst purchase you could ever make.

NORTON
Posts: 1230
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 5:52 am
Location: KC,MO

Re: Miles vs age on battery degrading question

Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:34 am

evboy wrote:sounds like the lg battery is better.....
How do you know without seeing similar plots from a bunch of '15 Spark EV's?

As they/we say in the EV biz,,,,, Only time will tell.
Used '14 2LT w/ DCFC. +71 K miles.
Mostly free charging! Only one LONG visit to the shop....
GM needs Modern Troubleshooting tools for Modern EV's.
3 step Trouble Tree, 2nd guess not covered by warranty and cost $800. 3rd guess fixed the problem.

d15b7
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu May 07, 2015 2:31 pm

Re: Miles vs age on battery degrading question

Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:18 am

hi. I haven't graphed mine (I have a 2015), but I drive mine as a commuter and have had it for 19 months. in that time, I've driven it 17k miles, and my commute is very similar every week. I've noticed zero degradation in the range of my car so far (all things being equal). by that, I mean that for similar weather/temp circumstances, I get the same range out of the car. I'm extremely pleased about this, and forsee no battery issues in the future for me. btw I have always charged on my L2 at home never DCFC, and I try to not go below 20% battery (but I have a handful of times).

SparkevBlogspot
Posts: 499
Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 12:19 pm

Re: Miles vs age on battery degrading question

Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:41 am

Norton is correct in that you need to have lot more data to draw conclusions about 2014 vs 2015 in general. However, given that I drive down to "low" (1 mile remaining) few times and often down below 10 miles remaining as well as hundreds of DCFC (several times a week) and only got 0.3 kWh change from 18.4 kWh that it's supposed to be from factory, it seems my 2015 battery does quite well even with my usage pattern. My GOM still shows around 100 miles few times that I did charge to 100%. While I don't know how abusive Kevin is to his 2014, it'd be hard to top the level of use my 2015 has experienced.

Again, that's just one data point of 2014 vs 2015. You really can't draw general conclusion. Maybe I just got lucky or Kevin got unlucky. Or maybe Kevin is just a wild man behind the wheel! :-)

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