DC Charging "Lite"?

[SteveC5088]

It is beginning to puzzle me why all the EVs these days haul around an on-board charger. In the Spark and Volt, it is quite an involved bit of machinery, in that it carries its own water-cooling system with reservoir, etc. etc. Not to mention the added expense and weight.

Furthermore, cars with the DCFC option completely bypass the onboard charger, which mainly converts AC 120 or 240 volts to the DC current required to charge the high-voltage battery. So why in the world can't they create a DC charger that people can install in their garage?

I realize the public fast charging stations require commercial 3-phase power (3 incoming power lines, which gives 3x the power over the residential 2-line single-phase 240 volt power). But why can't they build a 240-volt charger that simply limits itself to, say, 30 or 40 amps input, and output the required DC voltage at whatever current that allows? It would charge significantly slower than the commercial DCFC chargers, but could charge more that 2x faster than the onboard chargers using the L2 level.

Having a charger like that would enable people to charge their cars at home much faster than the rate set by the limited onboard chargers.

 

[oregonsparky]

A couple of thoughts...

Given the lack of charging infrastructure - you need to have that on board charger so you can hook up to a wall outlet... And also to be cost effective to the end user - you need to be able to support inexpensive L1 charging (where no additional equipment required by homeowner).

By having an on board charger the manufacturer can control the charging to meet their specs/desires - balancing charging needs with battery life.

And as far as the water cooling goes - it is primarily for keeping the battery at an optimal temp for both battery charging/life & range during operation.

jeff

 

[SteveC5088]

Many people never use a public charging station, so what is in the garage at home is all we need. I am just saying that a portable external charger would make really good sense for someone like me. Why haul that extra equipment around all the time.

Having a high input DC charger in the garage that ran on 240 volts would be a nice appliance to have.

 

[NORTON]

I can see a market for a Home Fast DC charger. Patience, it's probably in the works.
One with 10Kw capability would be a nice option and would use 60 Amp service @ 240 Volts.
Of course not everyone's home is capable of this much current.
I believe there are 10Kw home chargers for Teslas.

 

[kevin]

I can see a market for a Home Fast DC charger. Patience, it's probably in the works.
One with 10Kw capability would be a nice option and would use 60 Amp service @ 240 Volts.
Of course not everyone's home is capable of this much current.
I believe there are 10Kw home chargers for Teslas.

The Tesla Model S has a 10kW charger built into in the car. You need an EVSE that will advertise 40A capability to support the full 10kW of course.

kevin

 

[cwerdna]

I can see a market for a Home Fast DC charger. Patience, it's probably in the works.
One with 10Kw capability would be a nice option and would use 60 Amp service @ 240 Volts.
Of course not everyone's home is capable of this much current.
I believe there are 10Kw home chargers for Teslas.

The Tesla Model S has a 10kW charger built into in the car. You need an EVSE that will advertise 40A capability to support the full 10kW of course.

kevin

Yes. Model S (as do all recent/current Tesla powered EV like the Rav4 EV and Mercedes B-Class ED) comes standard w/a single 10 kW OBC. A second 10 KW is optional (http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s-charging-adapters/products/2nd-onboard-charger) for up to 80 amp charging on an 80 amp EVSE (can be J1772 or a Tesla HPWC: http://shop.teslamotors.com/products/high-power-wall-connector).

http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/downloads/charging_wall_connector.pdf has a bit more info, along with https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/ms_hpwc_installation_guide.pdf. The HPWC has DIP switches to tell it the amperage of circuit it's attached to.

BTW, in Japan, they also have "intermediate" (as opposed to "fast") CHAdeMO DC chargers: see http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/42176-CHAdeMO-Make-Model-Review-%C2%97-Using-with-a-Tesla/page16?p=961564&viewfull=1#post961564 and http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/42176-CHAdeMO-Make-Model-Review-%C2%97-Using-with-a-Tesla/page16?p=971287&viewfull=1#post971287.

 

[SparkMoore]

So why in the world can't they create a DC charger that people can install in their garage?

I realize the public fast charging stations require commercial 3-phase power (3 incoming power lines, which gives 3x the power over the residential 2-line single-phase 240 volt power). But why can't they build a 240-volt charger that simply limits itself to, say, 30 or 40 amps input, and output the required DC voltage at whatever current that allows? It would charge significantly slower than the commercial DCFC chargers, but could charge more that 2x faster than the onboard chargers using the L2 level.

Having a charger like that would enable people to charge their cars at home much faster than the rate set by the limited onboard chargers.

Isn't that what emotorwerks sells? http://www.emotorwerks.com/component/content/article/83-emotorwerks/emotorwerks-technology/104-emotorwerks-charging-system

From what I can tell, there is one problem for Spark EV owners. They haven't yet developed a CCS standard charger, just CHAdeMO.

 

[stevon]

SteveC5088,

I understand your concern but I believe in modern designs the on board controller shares components with the motor controller re-using the IGBT inverter and heat sinks sort of in (reverse) with some additional circuitry like AC Propulsion's Integrated Bidirectional Reductive™ controller/charger design http://www.acpropulsion.com/datasheet/ac150gen2.pdf
Therefore only a few pounds maybe less than 2 are required to modify controller to the charger function.

Many people never use a public charging station, so what is in the garage at home is all we need. I am just saying that a portable external charger would make really good sense for someone like me. Why haul that extra equipment around all the time.

Having a high input DC charger in the garage that ran on 240 volts would be a nice appliance to have.

 

[NORTON]

So above we have two examples.
>One of a future product where the motor controller can also operate as the onboard charger.

>Then EMW has a ~$2000 "up to 20kW" DC charger but NO way of adapting it to a CCS connector.
EDIT: the CHADeMO connector and cable is $900. $700 for the charge controller to make the CHADeMo connector talk to the car to accept the DC charge.
So, +$3600 before installation. How much would the CCS kit costs.
Good luck getting an answer from them. I gave up on upgrading my juicebox...
Plus you have to live in a house that has another 60A service that can be used.

Face it, 3.3 kW charging is not that bad for this little car. The Bolt (or whatever) is on the way. It will surely have a bigger OBC.

Maybe you could get your town to get on the DCFC bandwagon and enter the future sooner than later!

 

[ezryder]

One problem is the Spark OBC is only 3.3kWh. Half the rest of all the modern EV's. Serious bummer, as if I'm forced to use 110v house outlet - which is more often than I thought it would be, (my friends all seem to have dryers that are a huge pain to move, if not unreasonable to attempt).

 

[cwerdna]

One problem is the Spark OBC is only 3.3kWh.

You mean 3.3 kW.

 

[stevon]

NORTON,

I was referring to the additional weight comment of having an onboard charger from the factory. The AC Propulsion Controller was just an example of their design is all, not as a portable DC charge station. I'm sure it could be modified for that use if directly connected to the traction battery pack. Battery cooling would also have to be incorporated during a charge session. Besides voiding the factory warranty on the car and it's 8 year battery might be a consideration to any personal or commercial DCFC solution. Would have to "talk" to car within manufactures specifications) (what ever they are). looked at AC Propulsions web site and they list J1772 capability at an additional cost for their products design.

So above we have two examples.
>One of a future product where the motor controller can also operate as the onboard charger.

>Then EMW has a ~$2000 "up to 20kW" DC charger but NO way of adapting it to a CCS connector.
EDIT: the CHADeMO connector and cable is $900. $700 for the charge controller to make the CHADeMo connector talk to the car to accept the DC charge.
So, +$3600 before installation. How much would the CCS kit costs.
Good luck getting an answer from them. I gave up on upgrading my juicebox...
Plus you have to live in a house that has another 60A service that can be used.

Face it, 3.3 kW charging is not that bad for this little car. The Bolt (or whatever) is on the way. It will surely have a bigger OBC.

Maybe you could get your town to get on the DCFC bandwagon and enter the future sooner than later!

There are industrial solutions but none to market yet that I know of

 

[stevon]

ezryder,

A portable DCFC solution would require a 100 amp 240 volt service look at the cord size required for that!

The other consideration (at least in California) is that you would push the consumers electric rate to tier 2 or tier 3 (19 and 28 cents/kwhr) Why not consider adding a 20 amp 240 volt socket at your friends house? The parts would pay for themselves over time. A temp solution is to wire in a temporary 240 volt A/C extension cord. The small twist lock adapter cord is to facilitate using the openEVSE NEMA L5-15 male end I installed. Since the max input used is 14 amps, I am nearing the L5-15 current limits, and it gets a little warm sometimes.

One problem is the Spark OBC is only 3.3kWh. Half the rest of all the modern EV's. Serious bummer, as if I'm forced to use 110v house outlet - which is more often than I thought it would be, (my friends all seem to have dryers that are a huge pain to move, if not unreasonable to attempt).

 

[Pegasus]

One problem is the Spark OBC is only 3.3kWh. Half the rest of all the modern EV's. Serious bummer, as if I'm forced to use 110v house outlet

120V outlets are only capable of delivering 1.44kW at 12A (the highest setting the car allows for 110/120V use.) So the outlet is your limiting factor in those cases, not the OBC.

 

[stevon]

Pegasus,
True dat, The Spark EV 3.3 Kw charge rate is only available @ 240 volts. Best to charge @L2 after 12:00am in California to avoid "rate rape" by charging an EV during the day while at your EV owner higher tier rate. Of course home rate won't go up if you are lucky enough to charge at work for free Not any longer

http://www.sdge.com/tiered-rates

One problem is the Spark OBC is only 3.3kWh. Half the rest of all the modern EV's. Serious bummer, as if I'm forced to use 110v house outlet

120V outlets are only capable of delivering 1.44kW at 12A (the highest setting the car allows for 110/120V use.) So the outlet is your limiting factor in those cases, not the OBC.

 

[stevon]

Norton,
Found a $7K DCFC home (possible) solution:
http://insideevs.com/siemens-unveils-single-phase-24-kw-fast-charger/

This would probably require a separate Meter installed and advice from the power company

NORTON,

I was referring to the additional weight comment of having an onboard charger from the factory. The AC Propulsion Controller was just an example of their design is all, not as a portable DC charge station. I'm sure it could be modified for that use if directly connected to the traction battery pack. Battery cooling would also have to be incorporated during a charge session. Besides voiding the factory warranty on the car and it's 8 year battery might be a consideration to any personal or commercial DCFC solution. Would have to "talk" to car within manufactures specifications) (what ever they are). looked at AC Propulsions web site and they list J1772 capability at an additional cost for their products design.

So above we have two examples.
>One of a future product where the motor controller can also operate as the onboard charger.

>Then EMW has a ~$2000 "up to 20kW" DC charger but NO way of adapting it to a CCS connector.
EDIT: the CHADeMO connector and cable is $900. $700 for the charge controller to make the CHADeMo connector talk to the car to accept the DC charge.
So, +$3600 before installation. How much would the CCS kit costs.
Good luck getting an answer from them. I gave up on upgrading my juicebox...
Plus you have to live in a house that has another 60A service that can be used.

Face it, 3.3 kW charging is not that bad for this little car. The Bolt (or whatever) is on the way. It will surely have a bigger OBC.

Maybe you could get your town to get on the DCFC bandwagon and enter the future sooner than later!

There are industrial solutions but none to market yet that I know of

 

[stevon]

There is a possible Home 12kw and 25kw DC charging solution, at least for the NISSAN LEAF

http://emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/product/show/10-smartcharge-12000-a-12kw-universal-voltage-ev-charger-fully-assembled-tested
http://emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/product/show/75-quickcharge-25000-hv-a-25kw-pfc-charger-for-higher-voltage-batteries
Sent an email asking about charging the Spark EV or other CCS EV with this device and they replied:

From: Dorian Vargas-Reighley [[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 3:06 PM
To: vonVoros, Stephen
Subject: Re: Spark EV

Hello,

We do not, at this time.

Thanks!

Dorian Vargas-Reighley – Director

+1.844.JUICEBX | [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>

Follow us on: facebook<https://www.facebook.com/eMotorWerks> | twitter<https://twitter.com/emotorwerks> | linkedin<https://www.linkedin.com/company/electric-motor-werks-inc->

[X]<http://www.emotorwerks.com/>

On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 11:18 AM, vonVoros, Stephen <svonvoros@<mailto:svonvoros@>> wrote:
Sales Engineer,

Do you have a SAE DCFC J1772 Combo solution for a Chevy Spark EV worked out? Does your system "talk" to the Spark's Battery management and cooling system?

 

[NORTON]

Found a $7K DCFC home (possible) solution:
http://insideevs.com/siemens-unveils-single-phase-24-kw-fast-charger/

Awesome! Only that's more than half of what I paid for my used Spark EV.
And it requires 100 Amp service, so for me that means powering my house or this DCFC 24 kW unit.

A link in the above article shows that this unit is made by Efacec. This is the company that makes the 13 DCFC units in my town.
They are rated at 50 kW and are as big as a refrigerator. How can this wall mounted unit have half the power?

What's the big hurry? Where are you going so much in this 82 mile rated BEV?
I think I'll live with a home 3.3 kW L2. Plus all the free L2's and DCFC sites that are close to me.

Oh, and good luck getting EMW to show any interest..

 

[stevon]

Norton,
I agree. after getting used to my driving and charging routine with portable L2 options to boot (generator, Adapter plugs, openEVSE) I can't see any reason (for me at least) to spend $4-$10K minimum for the instant convenience of a home DCFC. If I had that kind of dough I'd own a $85kTesla! I'm single and a reliable car to drive to work is all I need. Have ICE vehicles, 2006 Tacoma and had a 95 NSX (sold 8/3/15) for distance driving. The way I see it with free power at work and saving my annual gas bill of $3,360. The Spark will eventually pay for itself. Cost 30K- 10k tax write off= 20,000 /3,360per year = 5.95238 or 6 years

Found a $7K DCFC home (possible) solution:
http://insideevs.com/siemens-unveils-single-phase-24-kw-fast-charger/

Awesome! Only that's more than half of what I paid for my used Spark EV.
And it requires 100 Amp service, so for me that means powering my house or this DCFC 24 kW unit.

A link in the above article shows that this unit is made by Efacec. This is the company that makes the 13 DCFC units in my town.
They are rated at 50 kW and are as big as a refrigerator. How can this wall mounted unit have half the power?

What's the big hurry? Where are you going so much in this 82 mile rated BEV?
I think I'll live with a home 3.3 kW L2. Plus all the free L2's and DCFC sites that are close to me.

Oh, and good luck getting EMW to show any interest..

 

[stevon]

Norton,

I am just curious to see if EMW was considering using the American and European SAE J1772 and the SAE J2847/2 standard for the SmartCharge 12000 DCFC device. Not considering installing one, even if they do. Could change my mind if I trade in the Spark for a BOLT or similar 200 mile range BEV car.

Stephen

Found a $7K DCFC home (possible) solution:
http://insideevs.com/siemens-unveils-single-phase-24-kw-fast-charger/

Oh, and good luck getting EMW to show any interest..