Battery warranty advice for 2014 Spark

[niik]

I don't live in CA, so I'm not familiar with the CEC. What are you hoping to get by contacting them? Maybe there is a similar entity in my state.

My guess is that GM is just trying to get out of this with the minimum cost possible.
I am not a lawyer, but I read over the Magnuson Moss warranty act.

http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid%3AUSC-prelim-title15-chapter50&edition=prelim

(10) The term "remedy" means whichever of the following actions the warrantor elects:

(A) repair,

(B) replacement, or

(C) refund;


except that the warrantor may not elect refund unless (i) the warrantor is unable to provide replacement and repair is not commercially practicable or cannot be timely made, or (ii) the consumer is willing to accept such refund.

(11) The term "replacement" means furnishing a new consumer product which is identical or reasonably equivalent to the warranted consumer product.

(12) The term "refund" means refunding the actual purchase price (less reasonable depreciation based on actual use where permitted by rules of the Commission).

To me, this means they can offer a refund for the depreciated value (KBB value). I don't think there are legal grounds to fight unless you argue for a replacement, but I don't know what "commercially practicable" means, so I don't know if that would work.
I wish I could find a lawyer to review my case so I can get a professional opinion. I don't know if it would be worth fighting but I want to know what my options are.

It's so frustrating getting bounced between dealers, GM HQ, EV concierge, etc... Everyone points the finger at someone else.

 

[twinsemi]

The CEC (Customer Engagement Center) is the Chevrolet organization charged with keeping customers from bothering anybody in the company who can actually do something. That is your concierge. Don't you just love that term? They are headquartered in Warren, Michigan and handle all of the customer complaints for Chevy. They have a few people who who handle only California customers because the others are not trained in CA procedures, which are slightly different. I think they are specially trained to answer "I can't do that." to every request.

Most lawyers who handle consumer claims specialize in certain types of claims and since this is an unusual one, we have very little hope of getting any of them to take the time to get up to speed for our cases. I have been told flatly that they can't handle my case because my car is out of warranty (they can't understand the 8Y/100Kmile battery warranty) or that since I did not take my car to the dealer three times, that I have no recourse and they won't talk to me.

We have been told by the supervisor of our concierge that our case is now going to the repurchase team. This only happened after personally visiting the dealer that has our car and talking with the service mgr. Yesterday, I was finally able to arrange for them to talk to each other so that the thing can move forward. I don't know yet just what the details of their offers will be. The following is all that they are saying:
1. Wait up to 90 more days for a battery.
2. Accept a check for some amount that they offer for our Spark.
3. Arrange to get a new Bolt in exchange for some amount of money and our Spark.

They say that the repurchase negotiation will occur in two weeks. After that, it may be longer depending on the choice of vehicle if we choose door #3. We are still likely to choose door #3 since that lets us get the federal and state tax and rebate money. California has a rebate program of $2K but I don't know if we get that with the replacement plan. And the price of new and used cars (especially EV's) here has gone cray-cray.

 

[niik]

1. Wait up to 90 more days for a battery.
2. Accept a check for some amount that they offer for our Spark.
3. Arrange to get a new Bolt in exchange for some amount of money and our Spark.

I am at a similar spot with basically the same options. I have been talking with the GM District manager for my region, which does not include CA, so this info may not directly apply to you, but it may help.

#1 - I initially waited for many months for parts. My dealer and GM told me the unavailable part was new rear shocks. I'm assuming those are required since the LG battery weighs a different amount than the original A123 one. At one point, they even searched globally and had "the last one" shipped in from someplace overseas. Unfortunately, when it arrived, it did not pass QA, and GM could not install it in my car.

#2 - I have not gone through the repurchase estimate process because I was told I couldn't go back once that was done. So regardless of if I like the offer or not, that's all I get, and GM is done with the situation. The GM District manager said he does not know what offer they will make me, but the other vehicles he has processed were around $8k, which are related to KBB value.

#3 - My contact said that a "trade-repurchase" is an option, but it requires the dealer to volunteer to participate. The main dealer I worked with said they do not offer that program. I have reached out to the other dealers in my state, but none of them have gotten back to me, leading me to believe they are not interested in offering me a trade repurchase. The District manager also said he tried to get my car traded for a used bolt, one of the many GM bought back from recall because GM has thousands of them just sitting around with brand new batteries. But he was denied that request due to some legal barrier relating to the branded title from being "manufacturer buybacks."

#4 - Sell the vehicle on the open market and take a "GM loyalty credit" towards the purchase of a new never used vehicle. They said this could be up to 10% of the vehicle's original purchase price.

I have been running some numbers to help me determine the best option for me because, at the end of the day, my goal is to have a cost-effective daily commute vehicle.

Description:

• 
  Spark is what I paid and my current costs.

• BMW i3 is an option to get a second EV with more range. I would also keep the spark, or if I decide to sell the spark, I can put $8K more toward the BMW.

• New bolt and used bolt are based on the web prices, and the down payment included the value GM is offering for my spark.

• The Isuzu is there because that is my other vehicle and highlights why I want an EV for my daily drives.

So these numbers indicate to me that of the options that GM has currently offered me, my best choice is to keep waiting or go buy a used BMW i3.

All of these options are upsetting to me because I should not incur any costs (other than inconvenience) for an issue covered under warranty. Now, if the GM Rep or a local dealer can find me a cheaper Bolt than the ones I found maybe that can become a viable option.

 

[twinsemi]

I have had my Spark since September 2015 and I can vouch for your spreadsheet and its validity. It has been by far the best cost/mile of anything that is out there now or even in recent memory. Sounds like you might want to wait for them to stop pushing the Bolt battery packs out the door so that they can do some more Spark EV packs. My Spark is not running at all, so I don't want to wait. I am pretty sure (SNL type) that they can't pull the gambit of making me sign to deal that I haven't seen here in CA. Haven't got that far yet. Still waiting for final confirmation on our local Chevy dealer doing the swap. It all depends on how much Chevy corporate is willing to pay them to handle the deal. I suspect they are offering near zip and telling the dealer that they are building good will. I hope that my time talking with the service manager will help grease the skids. When I get the clutch and fuel injectors back in my 55 pickup next weekend, I think I'll drive it over there and offer to let the sales manager drive it around the block. Let him know that I could be a loyal customer. But maybe he can't drive a stick?

 

[twinsemi]

An idea to enhance your spreadsheet....
Normalize the pie chart. If you make the pie chart total equal to the maximum of all the options, (by adding a row with $$ saved compared to the maximum) then each of the wedges will represent a proportionate number of dollars. And the $$ saved row will appear in the pie chart to show which is best.

 

[niik]

Ya, if my spark was not running at all, then time to resolution would be more of a factor. I agree that my best option seems to wait for GM to fix my battery.

I hope your dealer is willing to work with you on the swap. Are you planning to pay extra on top, or will it be a straight 1-for-1 swap?
While you're there, can you ask if they want to handle mine too cause I would tow my car to CA if I could get a straight swap.

An idea to enhance your spreadsheet....
Normalize the pie chart. If you make the pie chart total equal to the maximum of all the options, (by adding a row with $$ saved compared to the maximum) then each of the wedges will represent a proportionate number of dollars. And the $$ saved row will appear in the pie chart to show which is best.

Sounds like a good idea.

 

[niik]

The main issue I have with waiting is that GM sent out a bulletin saying they will no longer be performing the 2014 battery retrofits and instructed dealers to discontinue service support for 2014 battery packs.

To me, this means GM does not plan to ever get the parts back in stock. Maybe, I'll address this with the District manager and see what he says.

 

[twinsemi]

When the CEC was telling us that we would be getting a 2019 Bolt, it was a straight swap. Now there will be a mileage deduction for the 57K on my Spark.

 

[niik]

Have they told you how much the deduction is and what the final value for the spark will be?

Also, is your car a 2014?

 

[niik]

I contacted the "BBB Auto Advocate" line listed in my GM warranty book as the recommended avenue for dispute resolution. I was hoping that avenue would allow more "flexibility" in finding a resolution since the process would include a "settlement" contract.
However, they could not take my case because they only resolve disputes relating to the "Bumper to Bumper New car warranty," but my dispute is related to the "Electric components warranty." They did still look up my GM case number and explained more about the options GM presented to me, so it wasn't a total waste.

I still haven't gotten an "official" legal review of my case but I did get someone to explain why no attornies want to talk to me. Basically, it would cost more to pursue the issue than winning is worth, and those cases often lead to bad reviews for the attorney and are more trouble than they are worth. Plus, the chances of winning anything more than the current $8k offer are slim to none.

I have informed the district manager that I want to wait for the fix since it's the only option that makes financial sense, based on the numbers in my previous post. I also asked him to address the bulletin saying support is ended, so I can know if a fix will ever become available. The district manager has genuinely tried to find a resolution, so I hope he can help me work out some kind of deal that doesn't make the situation worse.

P.S. California has different rules, so if you are in CA, you may have different results.

 

[twinsemi]

Our Spark is a 2015. The concierge people won't talk numbers of any kind. They say that is all up to the repurchase team.

 

[Porsche]

The main issue I have with waiting is that GM sent out a bulletin saying they will no longer be performing the 2014 battery retrofits and instructed dealers to discontinue service support for 2014 battery packs.

To me, this means GM does not plan to ever get the parts back in stock. Maybe, I'll address this with the District manager and see what he says.

That's not what this service bulletin says at all. This service bulletin only means that you can no longer buy a 2014 battery pack. It does not mean that you cannot get a 2016 retrofit. Actually, it means the exact opposite. This IS the very service bulletin that CREATES and RECOMMENDS the 2016 battery retrofit as an alternate to the no-longer-available 2014 battery pack. If you look at the rest of the service bulletin, it includes directions about installing new rear suspension components to accommodate differences between the two batteries.

Oh, and $8k? Really? What is the current KBB value, considering that these are now going for $16k-$17k used?

 

[niik]

Is there more to that bulletin?

That is the only page the dealer sent me, and they sent it in response to my request for status update and then they told me to take it up with GM. So based on the context it seemed like they were using this bulletin to refuse the service. When I asked GM they did not correct my assertion that service for this issue was ended.

I have not gotten the official offer but the GM regional manager said the other Spark EVs he has processed that are similar to mine received around $8k. The fact that is less then they are selling for is why it's an issue to me, since it would put me in a position of not having the car and not enough money to replace the car.

 

[Porsche]

Is there more to that bulletin? ... That is the only page the dealer sent me ... it seemed like they were using this bulletin to refuse the service...."

Oh wait. I see, you're right. But no, wait. there's more. Here is the original service bulletin which was issued in 2017. Here's a link, not from GM, but see:

https://dot.report/bulletins/10116554

The ORIGINAL service bulletin is as I described. But in April of 2022, it was amended. Presumably, it was amended because all of the 2014 cars would be out of warranty by April 2022. But your claim started in (or before) August 2021. At THAT time, the service bulletin was instructions about how to replace the battery with a 2016 battery. Think about it. If the 2016 battery is still available, why would the ability to put it in a 2014 car suddenly no longer work? The amendment was simply a statement by GM that they're not doing it any more because no more 2014 cars are under warranty. Of course, there's no reason why the original instructions couldn't be used for a paid battery replacement. But like I said, none of this should be relevant if your car was under warranty when your claim started, before they changed the service bulletin.

Wow, have you really been waiting more than a year without resolution?

 

[Porsche]

Also, regarding "...the DEALER sent me...[emphasis mine]" I'm not sure if you mentioned where you're located, but it's been my experience here in New York that the when the "dealer" sees my car, they typically don't have any idea that Chevrolet even MADE an EV in 2014 to 2016, much less how to service it.

 

[niik]

when the "dealer" sees my car, they typically don't have any idea that Chevrolet even MADE an EV in 2014 to 2016, much less how to service it.

Ya that was the first hurdle I had to overcome. None of the dealerships around wanted to help. I had to get GM to call them and explain to them what needed to be done do test my battery.

After that I was waiting for parts. The dealerships had my new battery but couldn't put it in the car because the conversion parts were on backorder. After that bulletin update they basically kicked me to the curb and told me to solve it with GM.

Everyone is pointing the finger at someone else. Dealership says its GMs problem, GM says the dealerships has to volunteer to make a deal.

I wish GM would just take the check that they were gonna send to the dealerships service department to fix my car and send it to the sales department instead so I could use the 10-15k on a new vehicle.

 

[SparkE]

I think that it is time to threaten a class-actuion suit. We have heard of 3 or 4 people JUST POSTING TO THIS SITE who have problems.

Sue them.

 

[niik]

TLDR: GM's bean counters know what they are doing and set up a situation where they are legally allowed to screw over the consumer, and even if they are not, it's not worth the money for a layer to try and force GM to provide a proper resolution.

I agree that this is a bit ridiculous, and i would sue GM to get it resolved. I have reached out to about 15 law firms/lawyers, my state bar association, and Better Business Bureau. However, I have not been able to get any layers to review the case to see if there is value in suing. The closest thing I got was some advice from a legal aid at one of the firms I called that boiled down to:
"Attornies are not interested in the case because there is no money in it (i.e. settlement) and if they charge the customer (me) directly and lose, more often than not, that leads to bad reviews that hurt their business in the long run, so finding a lawyer is going to be tough."

So, keeping in mind I am not a lawyer and have not been able to get a lawyer to review my case, this is my opinion on the situation. but I do watch LegalEagle, and Lehto's law on Youtube, so I'm kind of an expert. /s

The relevant law is the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act, possibly others at the state level but nothing I know of since the cars are too old to fall under any Lemon Laws.

The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act presents this statement about resolving a warranty claim.

The term "remedy" means whichever of the following actions the warrantor elects:

(A) repair,

(B) replacement, or

(C) refund;


except that the warrantor may not elect refund unless (i) the warrantor is unable to provide replacement and repair is not commercially practicable or cannot be timely made, or (ii) the consumer is willing to accept such refund.

(11) The term "replacement" means furnishing a new consumer product which is identical or reasonably equivalent to the warranted consumer product.

(12) The term "refund" means refunding the actual purchase price (less reasonable depreciation based on actual use where permitted by rules of the Commission).

(13) The term "distributed in commerce" means sold in commerce, introduced or delivered for introduction into commerce, or held for sale or distribution after introduction into commerce.

I believe the key section in this is: "the warrantor may not elect refund unless (i) the warrantor is unable to provide replacement and repair is not commercially practicable or cannot be timely made, or (ii) the consumer is willing to accept such refund."

I believe GM could argue that they do not make Spark EV's anymore, so a reasonably similar replacement is impossible. Also, it's quite obvious at this point a repair can not be completed in a timely manner. So it seems to me that GM could argue they have satisfied the requirements needed to select the "refund" option.

Since a refund is defined as "actual purchase price (less reasonable depreciation based on actual use where permitted by rules of the Commission)." I think they could argue that the KBB value is a good representation of the vehicle's depreciated value.

I think my counter-argument would be the Bolt EV is substantially similar since it is a 5-door (hatch back), Electic vehicle with an MSRP of around $30k in 2022. my car was $27K in 2013 so adjusting for inflation, that is almost exactly the same price, I don't know if this argument would work since the Bolt does have features that the spark didn't, so GM could try to argue they are not similar.
The other problem with this argument could be the warranty isn't for the whole car; it is only for the EV components, so the similarity comparison might only be relevant to the A123 vs LG battery packs.

Regarding suing. Magnusson-Moss has a few statements in section §2310. Remedies in consumer disputes. most of this is legal gibberish to me, but one part that sticks out to me is this:

(3) No claim shall be cognizable in a suit brought under paragraph (1)(B) of this subsection—

(A) if the amount in controversy of any individual claim is less than the sum or value of $25;

(B) if the amount in controversy is less than the sum or value of $50,000 (exclusive of interests and costs) computed on the basis of all claims to be determined in this suit; or

(C) if the action is brought as a class action, and the number of named plaintiffs is less than one hundred.

I had to google a few of these words, so I could be very wrong, but I think it's saying you need at least 100 people to file a class action.

 

[Porsche]

... I have not been able to get any layers to review the case to see if there is value in suing...

Seriously? There are "breach of warranty lawyers" and "consumer protection lawyers" listed ad nauseam. If this case doesn't qualify, what would? I'm guessing that the amount of money involved is too much to allow a small claims suit without a lawyer. Plus, in small claims you can't sue for punitive damages. Gee, I would think a lawyer would take a case like this with hopes of winning punitive damages and legal fees too. Just what do breach of warranty lawyers do, exactly, if not this? If you can't find representation, then what, does that mean that no one can sue over a warranty issue, ever, because the money is just too little? Never ever, for any product?

Hey, reminds me of a story I heard about a guy (with a Willys Jeep?) who bought a battery from a large discount store (forgot which one) in the 60's, with a promise of free lifetime replacement with no limitation. The store no longer had an automotive department. He went for his battery replacement, was denied. They even offered him a full refund. He said, nope, you're going to replace my battery every 4 to 7 years for as long as I own this car or until I die (which would probably come first). Apparently, he sued, and won, and they have paid for him to get his battery replaced for decade after decade after decade. I can't confirm this story and a Google search was fruitless, but I did see this somewhere.

 

[niik]

Seriously? There are "breach of warranty lawyers" and "consumer protection lawyers" listed ad nauseam. If this case doesn't qualify, what would? I'm guessing that the amount of money involved is too much to allow a small claims suit without a lawyer.

There are a bunch of lawyers, but they don't seem interested in this case. The only reason I have gotten so far is that they only deal with lemon laws cases, and my car is too old for that. Other than that, I normally get ghosted or a generic "sorry we are too busy to help you."

Even though I am willing to spend some money to resolve this, I don't have tens of thousands to spend on lawyers, and it probably wouldn't be worth it anyway. Even if I did "win" it would probably only be worth between $8K-$35K. I don't know what damages I could claim other than time and stress, and I'm not sure what the dollar value of that is, if it's even claimable. I think the lawyers don't want to take the case because it could be hard to win. So they would prefer to spend their time on easier cases, or cases with a higher potential payout.

Also I'm not sure GM is Technically in breach of warranty because they have offered me the depreciated refund option and the option to wait for a replacement. The parts I don't know are; can I negotiate the refund value, how long can they make me wait for the replacement battery, do I have to return the vehicle to get the refund, and a few others I can't remember right now, Those are the answers I want a lawyer to help me get.

Until I can get a lawyer to review this situation my best hope is to try and work with GM to get a good resolution.

I also think if I could put social media pressure on them for this poor handling of EV warranties, it could help, but I am not an "influencer," so not sure how I would get any traction with this.
Since GM is trying to grow its EV business, and they are already fighting a bad reputation from the Bolt issue. Informing people that GM is willing to kill support for EV batteries (the most expensive component of the car) before the warranty has even expired might cause people to second guess buying a GM EV. I know it's making me hesitate to buy another GM EV.