6.6 KW charger in the Spark EV?

[kenn]

Does anyone know GM's real reason for not putting a 6.6KW charger in the Spark EV. It sure would be nice to recharge in four hours instead of seven and to 'top-off' in even less time. Do not understand why the GM designers did not learn from reading about the early model leaf problems. Think a 6.6KW charger would do a lot to aid in the range anxiety problem.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Probably, the simple answer is that they can use the exact same 3.3kW charger that is in the Volt to save money. It's likely that GM is losing a bunch of money on the sale of every Spark EV, so anything that they can do to limit the expenses makes sense. Heck, GM is still losing money on the Volt, according to the company.

Both cars, the Spark EV and Volt, must be sold in California to offset the 150,000 oil burning cars that GM sells there each year, by regulation. Unfortunately for GM, they were the largest purchaser of California Air Resources Board (CARB) credits for the year ending Sept 30, 2013 because they haven't sold enough zero emission and hybrid cars in California and other CARB states.

GM is way behind, and it's costing them a lot of money. And worse, they are giving much of that money to their competition with the credits they bought from Toyota, et al.

Some folks have added a commercially available charger to their Nissan LEAF to be able to charge at 6.6kW. Perhaps that would interest you?

Adding the Brusa charger.

 

[Pegasus]

Some folks have added a commercially available charger to their Nissan LEAF to be able to charge at 6.6kW. Perhaps that would interest you?

It does me! Since I plan on buying mine, I'm all for hacking it up, especially if it's hide-able (like the Leaf's) to avoid spooking any dealer techs. I guess I'll have to contact Metric Mind for their thoughts on the Spark.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Some folks have added a commercially available charger to their Nissan LEAF to be able to charge at 6.6kW. Perhaps that would interest you?

It does me! Since I plan on buying mine, I'm all for hacking it up, especially if it's hide-able (like the Leaf's) to avoid spooking any dealer techs. I guess I'll have to contact Metric Mind for their thoughts on the Spark.

I don't think he does the conversions, but he will sell you a Brusa charger. The prices are really dropping on these.

I recommend the liquid cooled model.

 

[Pegasus]

Yeah, he responded to me and said that the hardest part will be to figure out where it could physically fit. Electrically it's just like what he did for the Leaf. I'm excited! That slow charger is the biggest downside of the Spark EV and there's now a way to remove that limitation! When I finally get mine (apparently it's only just now being produced so I'm looking at mid-January probably,) I'll certainly be having a look underneath.

 

[kenn]

Pegasus,

Been hoping to find a used Spark EV without success. On Monday, 28th Oct. 13 went ahead an ordered one for lease with a SAE combo charger. Supposedly, it should arrive in late December. There should be, famous last words, a rapid roll out of the SAE combo fast chargers in the near future which would significantly reduce the charge time on those occasions when needed to 20-30 minutes.

Having an additional 3.3KW charger should reduce your zero to full charge time to ~ four hours which would be nice. Would hope there will be a rapid development of a secondary market for 'Made To Fit' chargers. Since I do not plan on driving the car daily, believe the DC quick charger will be more appropriate for longer trips. Having to wait four or seven hours would present a problem.

May be dreaming, but think most gas stations will become energy stations if and when they get their head out of places where the sun doesn't shine. Most gas stations makes a significant amount of their income on non petroleum products. More EV's will produce more demand and the chicken/egg scenario will be history!



Posts: 31
Yeah, he responded to me and said that the hardest part will be to figure out where it could physically fit. Electrically it's just like what he did for the Leaf. I'm excited! That slow charger is the biggest downside of the Spark EV and there's now a way to remove that limitation! When I finally get mine (apparently it's only just now being produced so I'm looking at mid-January probably,) I'll certainly be having a look underneath.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... ordered one for lease with a SAE combo charger. Supposedly, it should arrive in late December. There should be, famous last words, a rapid roll out of the SAE combo fast chargers in the near future which would significantly reduce the charge time on those occasions when needed to 20-30 minutes.

If that is a dealer saying that, I would have them quantify what "rapid" is, and put it in writing. Make the purchase contingent on this "rapid" roll out.

News flash. There's no rapid roll out planned. The closest thing to getting ANY of the Frankenplugs will be the NRG deal which will install 200 along side CHAdeMO chargers used for cars like the Nissan LEAF, all in California only. Those 200 are to be deployed over FOUR years, and the four year timer hasn't even begun.

Perhaps this person confused the Frankenplug roll out with the rapid GM Spark EV roll out. To put it in perspective, Nissan sells the ENTIRE production of the Spark EV in less than a week, every week. Guess what chargers are going to be installed the most?

376 total Spark EVs sold in CARB states California and Oregon only

July 103
Aug 102
Sep 78
Oct 66

Year to date for the Nissan LEAF: 16,076
LEAF worldwide total sales: over 80,000

 

[iletric]

The newest on that: being made in mid Nov, arriving mid Dec. Good luck with that.

 

[kenn]

Hello Tony & iletric,
Thanks for the confirmation of timining on the SAE combo plug on the Spark EV. Was not able to find much on the placement of charging stations other than what was stated. Believe the demand for DC SAE combo charging stations will promote their being installed. Hope that the time of rapid chargers has arrived!

 

[TonyWilliams]

... Believe the demand for DC SAE combo charging stations will promote their being installed. Hope that the time of rapid chargers has arrived!

Yes, rapid chargers have arrived, just not those that can be used on GM and German cars. Still, there are exactly zero of those cars in the USA, and future production looks bleak.

So, yes, demand will prevail! That's why tens of thousands of Nissan LEAF and Tesla cars have rapid charging infrastructure and why it continues to grow. That hasn't been the case for the Spark niche charging standard.

 

[kenn]

Tony, Respectfully disagree on your comment! But there never is an absolute clear cut answer.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony, Respectfully disagree on your comment! But there never is an absolute clear cut answer.

I'm not sure what you disagree with; most is just fact. Just let me know which item you don't agree with, if any:

1) the past few months have been record sales of plugin cars in the US (about 10,000/month)
2) the past few months, GM sold 376 Spark EVs total since their EV-1 in 2000.
3) GM builds the Spark EV to earn CARB-ZEV credits at the minimum quantity required
4) GM is the flagship US manufacturer for the Frankenplug charge standard. No other US manufacturer has or is planning a Frankenplug car anytime soon. US manufacturer Tesla will never use the Frankenplug standard, but they will build hundreds of thousands of EVs with their own nationwide Supercharger network with 20k-25k cars sold this year alone.
5) Nissan will also sell 20k-25k EVs this year that can use the hundreds of existing CHAdeMO chargers

I could go on, but the prognosis isn't good for Frankenplug, particularly out of California.

 

[cwerdna]

... Believe the demand for DC SAE combo charging stations will promote their being installed. Hope that the time of rapid chargers has arrived!

Yes, rapid chargers have arrived, just not those that can be used on GM and German cars. Still, there are exactly zero of those cars in the USA, and future production looks bleak.

So, yes, demand will prevail! That's why tens of thousands of Nissan LEAF and Tesla cars have rapid charging infrastructure and why it continues to grow. That hasn't been the case for the Spark niche charging standard.

To further backup what Tony has to say and throw water on kenn's rosy predictions/fantasies, take a look at the monthly and YTD sales figures at http://insideevs.com/october-2013-plug-in-electric-vehicle-sales-report-card/ of the Leaf and Model S vs. the Spark EV.

Also look at the numbers of Leafs sold in the US at http://www.hybridcars.com/december-2011-dashboard-sales-still-climbing-35093/ and http://www.hybridcars.com/december-2012-dashboard. Per http://insideevs.com/global-nissan-leaf-sales-zip-past-75000/, Leaf sales worldwide have passed 75K units.

Then look at the number of CHAdeMO QCs at http://www.chademo.com/.

There is 0 demand for Frankenplug QCs right now as there are 0 shipping cars with it in US. The other Frankenplug car that we know of in the future is the BMW i3 w/optional range extender engine that will begin shipping in 2Q 2014. But, BMW doesn't sell many cars in the US (http://www.autoblog.com/2013/01/03/2012-dont-call-it-a-comeback-edition/), so if their i3 sales are similar in % to Nissan Leaf sales of Nissan's sales, it's impossible for that to somehow rocket ahead.

US manufacturer Tesla will never use the Frankenplug standard, but they will build hundreds of thousands of EVs with their own nationwide Supercharger network with 20k-25k cars sold this year alone.

Never? I think that's too strong a word. I think the probability is extremely low and virtually 0 for the US at this point. There's no point in them bothering w/supporting it due to lack of infrastructure.

And, in case kenn's unaware, Tesla announced http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s/products/chademo-adapter recently.

 

[kenn]

Hello cwerdna,

Not going to hold my breath until the SAE combo charging stations become available. It is possible they will never be numerous, but I have heard of two in existence already and there are no production cars out there to use the chargers. Our discussing the SAE combo charging stations will not have a lot of impact on their existence and future use. Demand will be the determining factor and it is doubtful that any of us has a crystal ball.

Telsa is a great car.................. Can't wait until their prices get within reason. Never understood their seemly strong desire to exclude others from using their super chargers, but building adapters for Telsa so they could use public adapters. It makes economic sense but otherwise it does not promote the adoption EV's overall for the majority of potential EV adapters.

Anyway, we are straying from the original concern as to why the Spark did not have a 6.6KW on board rectifier.

cwerdna
Post subject: Re: 6.6 KW charger in the Spark EV?
Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:40 am
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Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:35 am
Posts: 2
TonyWilliams wrote:
kenn wrote:
... Believe the demand for DC SAE combo charging stations will promote their being installed. Hope that the time of rapid chargers has arrived!


Yes, rapid chargers have arrived, just not those that can be used on GM and German cars. Still, there are exactly zero of those cars in the USA, and future production looks bleak.

So, yes, demand will prevail! That's why tens of thousands of Nissan LEAF and Tesla cars have rapid charging infrastructure and why it continues to grow. That hasn't been the case for the Spark niche charging standard.

To further backup what Tony has to say and throw water on kenn's rosy predictions/fantasies, take a look at the monthly and YTD sales figures at http://insideevs.com/october-2013-plug- ... port-card/ of the Leaf and Model S vs. the Spark EV.

Also look at the numbers of Leafs sold in the US at http://www.hybridcars.com/december-2011 ... ing-35093/ and http://www.hybridcars.com/december-2012-dashboard. Per http://insideevs.com/global-nissan-leaf ... ast-75000/, Leaf sales worldwide have passed 75K units.

Then look at the number of CHAdeMO QCs at http://www.chademo.com/.

There is 0 demand for Frankenplug QCs right now as there are 0 shipping cars with it in US. The other Frankenplug car that we know of in the future is the BMW i3 w/optional range extender engine that will begin shipping in 2Q 2014. But, BMW doesn't sell many cars in the US (http://www.autoblog.com/2013/01/03/2012 ... k-edition/), so if their i3 sales are similar in % to Nissan Leaf sales of Nissan's sales, it's impossible for that to somehow rocket ahead.
TonyWilliams wrote:
US manufacturer Tesla will never use the Frankenplug standard, but they will build hundreds of thousands of EVs with their own nationwide Supercharger network with 20k-25k cars sold this year alone.

Never? I think that's too strong a word. I think the probability is extremely low and virtually 0 for the US at this point. There's no point in them bothering w/supporting it due to lack of infrastructure.

And, in case kenn's unaware, Tesla announced http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections ... mo-adapter recently.


Report this post

 

[TonyWilliams]

... Not going to hold my breath until the SAE combo charging stations become available. It is possible they will never be numerous, but I have heard of two in existence already and there are no production cars out there to use the chargers. Our discussing the SAE combo charging stations will not have a lot of impact on their existence and future use. Demand will be the determining factor and it is doubtful that any of us has a crystal ball.

Actually, talking about it does educate others. There are plenty of folks like you who either have no idea that GM is the "odd man out" with their DC charging standard. GM also seems to have played all their cards on promoting this standard, because the media rhetoric from GM has all but died. Tesla gets tons of "earned advertising" with their very well done standard.

Here's the numbers (again) for each person to consider for themselves:

Protocol .......... US Deployed . World Deployed . US Cars . Worldwide Cars
Frankenplug ........ 2 ..................... 0 ................ 0 ............. 0 ... (moribund)
CHAdeMO ......... 300 ................. 3,000 ......... 40,000 .... 110,000 (growing fast)
Supercharger .... 240 ................... 300 .......... 15,000 ..... 18,000 (extreme growth)

Tesla is a great car.................. Can't wait until their prices get within reason. Never understood their seemly strong desire to exclude others from using their super chargers, but building adapters for Telsa so they could use public adapters. It makes economic sense but otherwise it does not promote the adoption EV's overall for the majority of potential EV adapters.

A lower priced Tesla Model E car is coming in 2016-2017 that can go 200 miles, use the nationwide Supercharger network, and is likely to be sold for $35k to $50k. Not as cheap as the current Spark EV, but far more capable.

There is a fourth generation car after that which even cheaper.

 

[TonyWilliams]

US manufacturer Tesla will never use the Frankenplug standard, but they will build hundreds of thousands of EVs with their own nationwide Supercharger network with 20k-25k cars sold this year alone.

Never? I think that's too strong a word. I think the probability is extremely low and virtually 0 for the US at this point. There's no point in them bothering w/supporting it due to lack of infrastructure.

If by support, you mean a Frankenplug adaptor, sure, that will happen if there is widespread Frankenplug stations.

Heck, I might build one!

 

[cwerdna]

Actually, talking about it does educate others. There are plenty of folks like you who either have no idea that GM is the "odd man out" with their DC charging standard. GM also seems to have played all their cards on promoting this standard, because the media rhetoric from GM has all but died. Tesla gets tons of "earned advertising" with their very well done standard.

Here's the numbers (again) for each person to consider for themselves:

Protocol .......... US Deployed . World Deployed . US Cars . Worldwide Cars
Frankenplug ........ 2 ..................... 0 ................ 0 ............. 0 ... (moribund)
CHAdeMO ......... 300 ................. 3,000 ......... 40,000 .... 110,000 (growing fast)
Supercharger .... 240 ................... 300 .......... 15,000 ..... 18,000 (extreme growth)

Tesla is a great car.................. Can't wait until their prices get within reason. Never understood their seemly strong desire to exclude others from using their super chargers, but building adapters for Telsa so they could use public adapters. It makes economic sense but otherwise it does not promote the adoption EV's overall for the majority of potential EV adapters.

Yep. About a week ago, I had a conversation w/someone at my work (I don't really know him) during an event (he was wearing Google Glass and I had to participate in something involving him a few days earlier) and he was interested in the Spark EV (he said because of his torque and partly because of its range)). He asked something to the effect of whether or not the charging stations installed at our work were DC fast chargers. My response was basically "hell no. Those are WAY too expensive w/the cheapest being $15.5K not including installation, needing 480-volt 3 phase power, etc. and there's no need."

At work we have a bunch of Chargepoint L2 EVSEs, totaling 10 J1772 handles and some 120 volt outlets that don't get used much. Due their placement, almost everyone who uses our parking garage at work will see many of those EVSEs each day they enter and exit.

I briefly explained all this to him and along w/Frankenplug, the Frankenplug players, etc. He said he had no idea re: these charging standards.

FWIW, I work at a tech company in Silicon Valley and Chargepoint's HQ is less than a mile away from my work. One can only imagine what things might be like in areas not as tech savvy.

For reference, the $15.5K DC FC is at http://nissanqc.com/. Long ago, Nissan bragged that they got a CHAdeMO DC FC down to $10K. It was at that site for a little bit but got yanked after not too long, w/o no explanation.

At first, I thought Tony's 110K count of CHAdeMO cars was too high but apparently the i-Miev (the other major CHAdeMO capable car) has had a decent count worldwide (but with a TERRIBLE showing in the US): http://insideevs.com/global-sales-of-mitsubishi-i-miev-exceed-33000-units-ev-enters-malaysia-as-countrys-first-production-electric-vehicle/. So, 110K probably isn't too far off.

As for Tesla's Superchargers, their VERY FAST charging speed and "free charging for life" is one of their differentiating features/advantages. They've raced ahead and couldn't wait for Frankenplug people screw around. Their connector is a lot more elegant and smaller than the bulky CHAdeMO connector. I believe they're achieving charging rates well beyond any existing CHAdeMO or Frankenplug DC FCs.

 

[kenn]

Hi cwerdna,

The unofficial output: CHAdeMo:50 KW, SAE combo: 80 KW, Supercharger:120 KW
Think these outputs can be modified with a little 'tinkering'.

As of this moment, have no investment in the game of chargers. Potential EV candidates take a look at the confusions and say that is a bunch of 'xxxxx' and stay with their hydrocarbon polluter. For the good of all EV advocates, tree huggers, and etc. someone needs to set a standard and go with it. The three majors all have their good and bad points. Not a expert, but believe that adapters can be made for the two majors that are not selected.

Am fairly confident that the $10 to $15K cost of the DC chargers can be drastically reduce by the 'assembly line' technique. The charger cost you are now seeing are way out of line. We, the EV advocates, are tearing down the few bridges that have been built by not going forward in united way. Kenn

________________________________________________________________________________________
Post subject: Re: 6.6 KW charger in the Spark EV?
Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:26 pm
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:35 am
Posts: 3
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
TonyWilliams wrote:
Actually, talking about it does educate others. There are plenty of folks like you who either have no idea that GM is the "odd man out" with their DC charging standard. GM also seems to have played all their cards on promoting this standard, because the media rhetoric from GM has all but died. Tesla gets tons of "earned advertising" with their very well done standard.

Here's the numbers (again) for each person to consider for themselves:

Protocol .......... US Deployed . World Deployed . US Cars . Worldwide Cars
Frankenplug ........ 2 ..................... 0 ................ 0 ............. 0 ... (moribund)
CHAdeMO ......... 300 ................. 3,000 ......... 40,000 .... 110,000 (growing fast)
Supercharger .... 240 ................... 300 .......... 15,000 ..... 18,000 (extreme growth)


Quote:
Tesla is a great car.................. Can't wait until their prices get within reason. Never understood their seemly strong desire to exclude others from using their super chargers, but building adapters for Telsa so they could use public adapters. It makes economic sense but otherwise it does not promote the adoption EV's overall for the majority of potential EV adapters.


Yep. About a week ago, I had a conversation w/someone at my work (I don't really know him) during an event (he was wearing Google Glass and I had to participate in something involving him a few days earlier) and he was interested in the Spark EV (he said because of his torque and partly because of its range)). He asked something to the effect of whether or not the charging stations installed at our work were DC fast chargers. My response was basically "hell no. Those are WAY too expensive w/the cheapest being $15.5K not including installation, needing 480-volt 3 phase power, etc. and there's no need."

At work we have a bunch of Chargepoint L2 EVSEs, totaling 10 J1772 handles and some 120 volt outlets that don't get used much. Due their placement, almost everyone who uses our parking garage at work will see many of those EVSEs each day they enter and exit.

I briefly explained all this to him and along w/Frankenplug, the Frankenplug players, etc. He said he had no idea re: these charging standards.

FWIW, I work at a tech company in Silicon Valley and Chargepoint's HQ is less than a mile away from my work. One can only imagine what things might be like in areas not as tech savvy.

For reference, the $15.5K DC FC is at http://nissanqc.com/. Long ago, Nissan bragged that they got a CHAdeMO DC FC down to $10K. It was at that site for a little bit but got yanked after not too long, w/o no explanation.

At first, I thought Tony's 110K count of CHAdeMO cars was too high but apparently the i-Miev (the other major CHAdeMO capable car) has had a decent count worldwide (but with a TERRIBLE showing in the US): http://insideevs.com/global-sales-of-mi ... c-vehicle/. So, 110K probably isn't too far off.

As for Tesla's Superchargers, their VERY FAST charging speed and "free charging for life" is one of their differentiating features/advantages. They've raced ahead and couldn't wait for Frankenplug people screw around. Their connector is a lot more elegant and smaller than the bulky CHAdeMO connector. I believe they're achieving charging rates well beyond any existing CHAdeMO or Frankenplug DC FCs.


Report this post

 

[cwerdna]

As of this moment, have no investment in the game of chargers. Potential EV candidates take a look at the confusions and say that is a bunch of 'xxxxx' and stay with their hydrocarbon polluter. For the good of all EV advocates, tree huggers, and etc. someone needs to set a standard and go with it. The three majors all have their good and bad points. Not a expert, but believe that adapters can be made for the two majors that are not selected.

Am fairly confident that the $10 to $15K cost of the DC chargers can be drastically reduce by the 'assembly line' technique. The charger cost you are now seeing are way out of line. We, the EV advocates, are tearing down the few bridges that have been built by not going forward in united way. Kenn

Well, CHAdeMO and Tesla's Supercharger "standard" are already pretty much de-facto standards.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=183351#p183351 was a reasonably accurate translation at the time (March 2012).

Translation: Seven European and US auto makers declare that the Japanese quick charging standard, currently with over 1,000 chargers and tens of thousands of vehicles worldwide, cannot be used. Three of the seven sell BEV's in small scale pilot test programs. One sells production quantities of an EREV which neither has nor needs quick charging. None sell BEV's in full production, and none have announced plans to sell any BEV that can use quick charging. And no company has announced plans to build an SAE quick charger - if the standard existed yet.

I don't know if Tony's posted this here, but http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=272070#p272070 re: a Frankenplug roll call is reasonably correct. Ask yourself out of those cast members, which of them have serious EV programs in terms of shipping/planning to ship EVs/PHEVs with Frankenplug in large quantities in the near future and is willing to plunk the $ for the DC FC infrastructure they favor. BMW seems like the only serious player amongst them but their i3 doesn't ship in the US until 2Q 2014. How many will bother/need DC FC when they offer an optional range extender engine and there's virtually 0 Frankenplug infrastructure?

To add to the confusion, it appears the BMW i3 in regions where Mennekes is common (e.g. Europe) won't even have the same J1772 CCS Frankenplug we have here but rather one that has Mennekes up top. See http://www.netcarshow.com/bmw/2014-i3/800x600/wallpaper_a4.htm. https://www.facebook.com/groups/BMWi3/permalink/545519108855288/ from an i3 on display in Australia also showed Mennekes + 2 pins. This is unlike the world standard CHAdeMO.

Per http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=329641#p329641

As a point of reference....

At the Plugin 2013 conference, it was mentioned that the average cost for hardware and installation of a DC FC specifically at a Nissan dealer is $49K and change...

TonyWilliams can chime in on what a typical DC FC costs, along w/installation and other work and equipment are possibly needed.

BTW, is there a reason why you keep copying and pasting/including entire posts of others w/o surrounding them w/quote tags? It's annoying and distracting. I skip over them as I have no idea what's changed inside them, if any.

If you want to avoid "revisionist history", you could submit threads/posts to http://archive.org/. I strongly encourage you to submit articles to archive.org, in the event they get aged off/disappear.

 

[kenn]

Hello all,
Does anyone else find it strange that most who do not like the SAE combo call it a 'Frankenplug'. Everyone is acting like they are a bunch of spoiled brats if their preferred standard is not accepted. It is somewhat irrelevant what each of us think since we are not a major players in the EV industry. Lets just get a standard fast charger and make adapters for the non standard. A DC volt is DC volt and AC is AC even tho it may be a little different in frequency. Our common part (EV's) outweighs any operational part. kenn