connections— 10-30 to L6-20

[PPL]

PPL, I have seen people warn about homeowners insurance refusal cover issues based on DIY / un-permitted / non-NEC / non-UL-approved work and equipment.

But I have not seen anyone actually quote a policy that really does have words to that effect. I've gone searching myself, and cannot find anything. I even found people calling such warnings Urban Legend.

When in doubt of policy coverage, please do check with your insurance agent. If you are lucky enough never to had to use your home insurance policy, I am glad for you. In our last house, we had a major roof leak during a major storm that caused water damage in the internal wall. I certainly saw then the fine print on what is covered and what is not.

The National Electrical Code (2005) is easily downloadable by anyone.
https://law.resource.org/pub/us/code/ibr/nfpa.nec.2005.pdf
There is a specific section 250.140 that covers that covers "bonding" of Grounded to Grounding conductors (that the 10-30 adapters use) which details what constitutes approval. Even the gauge of the wires used are defined.

As I said, safety is a personal choice. Just be educated on your decision instead of accepting someone's view on what is safe enough.

 

[PPL]

BTW, can someone tell me why the additional charging station/box is needed for the 240v? Aren't the L1 charging cords that come with ev's simply a regular 120 plug, a cord, and an ev plug?

Most Level 2 EVSE stations (TurboCord and Clipper Creek L25 series aside) are meant to be mounted outside and the casing is designed for weather protection. Sometimes I think the size and rugged looks are part of the marketing perceived value for how much they cost.

I just received my Bosch Level 2 unit (from $500 discount) and was amazed at the sheer size of it. I expected the J1772 cord to be much thicker (due to 30A) but the box must be 3-4 times the size of the Level 1 unit that came with the Spark EV. As discussed, all the EVSE (Level 1 or 2) need is small circuit board that "negotiates" with the EV before enabling the internal relays allowing AC current to flow.

I had it hooked up quickly in the garage and it is working well. The major benefit is to able to use up most of the charge during the day and still get a full recharge between 11pm to 7am. I used to have to use ChargePoint at work before I leave becos' I knew I would not be able to fully recharge overnight. Da#*! 3.3Kw charger inside all GM EVs.

Maybe one day, my curiosity will make me open it up to see what is inside this massive box. Looks good, but annoyed at the size since it uses up wall space to mount it.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I believe your cautions are "fear mongering", which is NOT a name that I'm calling you, but a descriptor of my opinion of your words. I stand by that assertion.

The "fine print" is what's on your home insurance coverage rules. Just ask a friendly insurance agent about using non-National Electrical Code approved wiring in your house and see what he/she says. If these adapters does have an approval, do let us know.

Again, standard fare "fear mongering". I have actually called my insurance company in the past with a crazy proposed electrical modification and the simple question, "Is my house covered should this "crazy" electric device burn down my house?"

The answer was, "yes, provided it wasn't intentional fraud to collect insurance".

This will be the last of my interaction with you on the subject.

Case closed.

Indeed.

 

[Pawl]

So, when all is said and done, in theory, I could use the following to L2 charge from my 10/30 to ev, correct?

1) 10-30 to L6-20 adapter from evseupgrade: http://evseupgrade.com/?main_page=product_info&products_id=17

2) L6-20 extension cord (UL approved) from stay online: http://www.stayonline.com/custom_power_cords.aspx

3) Turbocord

 

[TonyWilliams]

So, when all is said and done, in theory, I could use the following to L2 charge from my 10/30 to ev, correct?

1) 10-30 to L6-20 adapter from evseupgrade: http://evseupgrade.com/?main_page=product_info&products_id=17

2) L6-20 extension cord (UL approved) from stay online: http://www.stayonline.com/custom_power_cords.aspx

3) Turbocord

All just fine.

 

[Pawl]

Thanks, Tony. Hope to meet you at one of your ev meetups early in the new year...driving my spiffy new wheels.

 

[ezryder]

If you are looking to plug your L6-20P plug side into a 10-30P you could use an adapter like this: http://www.corddepot.com/shop/power-adapter/l6-20-ev-adapter-cords/

Select 10-30 for the male side. Then just use the L6-20 extension cord referenced earlier.

I think this post got lost in all the bickering. This appears to be exactly what we want here. I just ordered the Bosch Power Xpress and for the Spark it would use a 6-20P and the corresponding 6-20R outlet. (though it comes with a 6-30P, since it has a selectable amp up to 30, so it would probably make more sense to get a 6-30 for future proofing, but whatever).

Thank you for posting this link - I've been looking for this for days.

 

[Pawl]

Well, alas, I've moved several steps in other directions in the meanwhile since originally posting this thread. I've ordered the Juicebox Pro 40. The short version is that it's a "loaner" before getting a final updated smart version that will work with Edison wirelessly (allowing for a cheaper, ev-specific fee structure without a dedicated second meter. The program began last fall, but in fact they (EMW and SCE, PGE, and SDGE) still working out details for another month or more. I also wanted to have an ability to remotely start the charging, as well as schedule the charge session. There are other models out there that handle this, I believe, but hey, free is free (the final utility-approved evse, which they will exchange).

Oh yeah, it's also portable, relatively speaking (not hardwired).

 

[ezryder]

I thought about the JuiceBox Classic. Can you answer a simple question for me? I can't seem to find an answer. The Power Xpress I'm getting is switchable to 12, 16, 24, or 30 amps. The install guide says if it's set to 16 or 20 to use a 6-20 plug. If it's set to 6-30, use a 6-30 plug. It comes with a 6-30 plug and bare wire on the other end and you install the wire, (or have it installed). My question is if you think it's OK to have it set to 16 or 20 amps and use the 6-30 plug? Also, I think the most the Spark can draw is 12 amps, so would it harm anything to set it to 16 or 20? I think I saw somewhere to set it to 16 for the Spark, but I can't find that again.

My current thinking is to go with 6-30 and get a long cord made for the EVSE. Then get a few adapters - 6-30R to 10-30P and maybe 6-30R to 6-20P. And, really, not sure if it exists, but 6-30R to 14-50P for RV outlets.

 

[Chocula]

I thought about the JuiceBox Classic. Can you answer a simple question for me? I can't seem to find an answer. The Power Xpress I'm getting is switchable to 12, 16, 24, or 30 amps. The install guide says if it's set to 16 or 20 to use a 6-20 plug. If it's set to 6-30, use a 6-30 plug. It comes with a 6-30 plug and bare wire on the other end and you install the wire, (or have it installed). My question is if you think it's OK to have it set to 16 or 20 amps and use the 6-30 plug? Also, I think the most the Spark can draw is 12 amps, so would it harm anything to set it to 16 or 20? I think I saw somewhere to set it to 16 for the Spark, but I can't find that again.

My current thinking is to go with 6-30 and get a long cord made for the EVSE. Then get a few adapters - 6-30R to 10-30P and maybe 6-30R to 6-20P. And, really, not sure if it exists, but 6-30R to 14-50P for RV outlets.

You can always use less current with a bigger plug. While you could have a 6-20 (20 amp) plug installed and an adapter to plug into a 14-50 (50 amp), the most you should draw through this is 16 amps with is 80% of the smallest rated part. The Spark EV can pull up to 16 amps when using a 240 volt circuit so a 6-20 and set your charger to 16 amps would be fine for your Spark EV. To fully utilized the 30 amps your EVSE is capable of, a minimum of a 40 amp plug would be needed as well as a vehicle capable of drawing the full 30 amps of current.

6-30R (receptical) to 14-50P (plug) do exist as does just about any combination you would want. For example, if your EVSE has a 6-30P and you use an adapter to connect to a 6-20, you need to set your EVSE to 80% of the smallest connector which would be the 6-20 in this case which would be 16 amps. If your EVSE has a 6-30P and you use an adapter to connect to a 14-50, the smallest connector would be the 6-30 in this case your EVSE could be set to 24 amps.

 

[Pawl]

I thought about the JuiceBox Classic. Can you answer a simple question for me? I can't seem to find an answer. The Power Xpress I'm getting is switchable to 12, 16, 24, or 30 amps. The install guide says if it's set to 16 or 20 to use a 6-20 plug. If it's set to 6-30, use a 6-30 plug. It comes with a 6-30 plug and bare wire on the other end and you install the wire, (or have it installed). My question is if you think it's OK to have it set to 16 or 20 amps and use the 6-30 plug? Also, I think the most the Spark can draw is 12 amps, so would it harm anything to set it to 16 or 20? I think I saw somewhere to set it to 16 for the Spark, but I can't find that again.

My current thinking is to go with 6-30 and get a long cord made for the EVSE. Then get a few adapters - 6-30R to 10-30P and maybe 6-30R to 6-20P. And, really, not sure if it exists, but 6-30R to 14-50P for RV outlets.

You can always use less current with a bigger plug. While you could have a 6-20 (20 amp) plug installed and an adapter to plug into a 14-50 (50 amp), the most you should draw through this is 16 amps with is 80% of the smallest rated part. The Spark EV can pull up to 16 amps when using a 240 volt circuit so a 6-20 and set your charger to 16 amps would be fine for your Spark EV. To fully utilized the 30 amps your EVSE is capable of, a minimum of a 40 amp plug would be needed as well as a vehicle capable of drawing the full 30 amps of current.

6-30R (receptical) to 14-50P (plug) do exist as does just about any combination you would want. For example, if your EVSE has a 6-30P and you use an adapter to connect to a 6-20, you need to set your EVSE to 80% of the smallest connector which would be the 6-20 in this case which would be 16 amps. If your EVSE has a 6-30P and you use an adapter to connect to a 14-50, the smallest connector would be the 6-30 in this case your EVSE could be set to 24 amps.

So is it safe to say it's best to match upstream with downstream (breakers' capacity with plugs/receptacles), that the wire between should also [at least] match that capacity, and that despite the Spark's charger only drawing 16A, having more capacity upstream is okay?

 

[SteveC5088]

So is it safe to say it's best to match upstream with downstream (breakers' capacity with plugs/receptacles), that the wire between should also [at least] match that capacity, and that despite the Spark's charger only drawing 16A, having more capacity upstream is okay?

Yes. Breakers protect the downstream wiring and receptacles. But not the units plugged into the receptacles.

It is silly to downsize the breaker and wire to match your EVSE unit's max capacity. Sort of like only plugging your cell phone charger into a circuit with tiny wires and a 1 amp breaker.

However, my Voltec charging unit instructions recommended a breaker just large enough to handle its capacity, but it also has on-board fuses built in, so if the current ever exceeded its capacity, those fuses would protect it. Some EVSE units don't carry an internal fuse, so they are not as well protected. I think, though, that since the Voltec is hard-wired to the circuit, that the breaker needed to be right-sized for the Voltec.

I ran my own wires in a custom-built channel across my garage ceiling from the breaker panel, and installed a 70 amp breaker, sized for the AWG 6 wires. But the largest plug made is the NEMA 14-50, capable of 50 amps. (Technically, it should be protected with a 50-amp breaker). I plugged my JuiceBox 40-amp EVSE into that. It has a 32-amp J1772 plug, and I charge my Spark, capable of pulling 16 amps.

 

[ezryder]

I think I have it all sorted out, now. Thanks guys.

I ended up with the Bosch Power Xpress, which is "moveable"/portable and has adjustable amp settings from 12 to 30. I bought a few cables:

1) L6-30P pigtail, for installing into the Bosch, per install directions. I also got a wall outlet - L6-30R.
2) L6-30R to L6-30P with 25' of wire between. (extension cord)
3) L6-30R to 10-30P for old style dryers
4) L6-30R to 14-xx Universal Adapter (14-30, 14-50, and 14-60 outlets) for newer dryers and campgrounds
5) L6-30R to 5-15 for 110v household outlets

All of the above from evseupgrade.com except #2, which was from Amazon, ($55 for the ext; $167, with tax and shipping for the rest). Another $500, or so for the Power Xpress after $500 credit, and I'm hopefully future proofed with a 30amp setup.

Of course, just because of that, the new Bolt will require a 50amp setup.

 

[sTeeve]

I think I have it all sorted out, now. Thanks guys.

I ended up with the Bosch Power Xpress, which is "moveable"/portable and has adjustable amp settings from 12 to 30. I bought a few cables:

1) L6-30P pigtail, for installing into the Bosch, per install directions. I also got a wall outlet - L6-30R.
2) L6-30R to L6-30P with 25' of wire between. (extension cord)
3) L6-30R to 10-30P for old style dryers
4) L6-30R to 14-xx Universal Adapter (14-30, 14-50, and 14-60 outlets) for newer dryers and campgrounds
5) L6-30R to 5-15 for 110v household outlets

All of the above from evseupgrade.com except #2, which was from Amazon, ($55 for the ext; $167, with tax and shipping for the rest). Another $500, or so for the Power Xpress after $500 credit, and I'm hopefully future proofed with a 30amp setup.

Of course, just because of that, the new Bolt will require a 50amp setup.

Yeah, "...Bolt will require 50A setup".
When I was doing my research (like you're doing now) in 2012, I was haunting the Tesla fanboy forums, diyelectricar.com, mynissanleaf.com, etc.
One of the takehome messages was from a few grizzled veterans of EV land: "put a 50A service in your garage, preferably with a NEMA 14-50R. You're "future-proofing". Later EVs will have faster onboard chargers."
Their reasoning was sound. The early production-based EVs, except for Tesla, had 3.3kW onboard chargers, which are more than adequate for overnight charging. My girlfriend and I can attest to that, as we took our first roadtrip in my 2012 Leaf SL from Atlanta to Macon, Ga. Had to stop twice to charge, and in Macon we plugged-in overnight at a Red Roof Inn (after inquiring, first, at the front desk, and after a brief explanation, received permission). However, our two waypoint-charging stops were 2 - 3 hrs each; we planned for it, so we had our little camp table, camp chairs, good cheeses, grapes, find Belgian ales, cutting board, etc. A nice picnic we both rather enjoyed.

 

[Chocula]

"Required" seems like the wrong wording, "will charge faster if it has" would be more accurate.

 

[ezryder]

Yeah, "...Bolt will require 50A setup".
When I was doing my research (like you're doing now) in 2012, I was haunting the Tesla fanboy forums, diyelectricar.com, mynissanleaf.com, etc.
One of the takehome messages was from a few grizzled veterans of EV land: "put a 50A service in your garage, preferably with a NEMA 14-50R. You're "future-proofing". Later EVs will have faster onboard chargers."
Their reasoning was sound. The early production-based EVs, except for Tesla, had 3.3kW onboard chargers, which are more than adequate for overnight charging. My girlfriend and I can attest to that, as we took our first roadtrip in my 2012 Leaf SL from Atlanta to Macon, Ga. Had to stop twice to charge, and in Macon we plugged-in overnight at a Red Roof Inn (after inquiring, first, at the front desk, and after a brief explanation, received permission). However, our two waypoint-charging stops were 2 - 3 hrs each; we planned for it, so we had our little camp table, camp chairs, good cheeses, grapes, find Belgian ales, cutting board, etc. A nice picnic we both rather enjoyed.

Sounds like my kind of trip! Yeah, well, I was going to just get 20 amp adapters and wire and all that, but I had trouble finding the right combination of everything and just gave up and went with 30 amp stuff. Who knows; maybe Chevy will upgrade the charger to 6.6... (and pigs will fly in perfect v-shaped formation across the sky)

 

[Pawl]

6-30R (receptical) to 14-50P (plug) do exist as does just about any combination you would want. For example, if your EVSE has a 6-30P and you use an adapter to connect to a 6-20, you need to set your EVSE to 80% of the smallest connector which would be the 6-20 in this case which would be 16 amps. If your EVSE has a 6-30P and you use an adapter to connect to a 14-50, the smallest connector would be the 6-30 in this case your EVSE could be set to 24 amps.

I ran my own wires in a custom-built channel across my garage ceiling from the breaker panel, and installed a 70 amp breaker, sized for the AWG 6 wires. But the largest plug made is the NEMA 14-50, capable of 50 amps. (Technically, it should be protected with a 50-amp breaker). I plugged my JuiceBox 40-amp EVSE into that. It has a 32-amp J1772 plug, and I charge my Spark, capable of pulling 16 amps.

Does the EVSE need to be set [down] to the 20A, or does this matter? (Doesn't the onboard charger essentially tell the EVSE what to let through?)

 

[Chocula]

Does the EVSE need to be set [down] to the 20A, or does this matter? (Doesn't the onboard charger essentially tell the EVSE what to let through?)

The on-board charger will draw up to the max the EVSE tells it it can, or the maximum of the charger, which ever is lower. The point of setting the EVSE it to ensure whatever gets plugged into it does not draw more power than the circuit can take.

I don't think it would be wise to assume nobody will ever plug in something with a larger on board charger. Since the Spark EV can only draw 16 amps, it would be a much better practice to leave the EVSE at 16 amps, as long as the circuit can take at least that.

Chocula

 

[Pawl]

Does the EVSE need to be set [down] to the 20A, or does this matter? (Doesn't the onboard charger essentially tell the EVSE what to let through?)

The on-board charger will draw up to the max the EVSE tells it it can, or the maximum of the charger, which ever is lower. The point of setting the EVSE it to ensure whatever gets plugged into it does not draw more power than the circuit can take.

I don't think it would be wise to assume nobody will ever plug in something with a larger on board charger. Since the Spark EV can only draw 16 amps, it would be a much better practice to leave the EVSE at 16 amps, as long as the circuit can take at least that.

Chocula

I'm using 6/3 with 50A breaker. Overkill for the Spark, but just leaving option open for all my Tesla owner friends—or, more likely, a more robust ev some future day. The Jukebox 40 Pro arrived pre-configured to a 30A operation. I can change the limitation it places on input amperage, but if it doesn't pose any problem downstream (Spark), why not leave the Jukebox as it is (30A) rather than change it?

 

[Chocula]

I am not quite sure what you are asking anymore. I thought this tread was about using a portable EVSE and possibly connecting it to a L6-20 (which is a 20 amp plug so the circuit can not be rated any higher than 20 amps).

The EVSE should be set to no more than 80% of the circuit it is connected too, regardless of what vehicle gets connected to it.

Can you set the EVSE lower? Yes
Do you need to set the EVSE lower? No