DC fast charging: J1772 CCS vs CHAdeMO vs Supercharger, etc.

[Oberon]

Why take them out? You need them.

As for J1772 protocol... err... you talked about 3 standards, so I presume you're referring to CHAdeMO, J1772 CCS and Tesla Supercharger. J1772 CCS apparently uses GreenPHY PLC. CHAdeMO uses CAN.
...
Nissan long ago bragged that they got the cost of a CHAdeMO DC FC down to $10K. It was briefly up at http://nissanqc.com/ but vanished, leaving the $15.K unit.

"Why take them out". It was a rhetorical device, I meant that if you consider the components of a charging station, you have all this stuff that is not related to the protocol and that the parts related to the specific protocol are only a very small part of the whole device. All J1772 chargers: level 1, level 2, level 3, DC have to support the same signaling protocol. If you consider the cost of the the protocol support it has to be very small as it is supported even in the cheapest charger and is a small part of even that device.

My point which I seem not to have explained well enough is that a charging station has a whole lot of stuff and costs that is protocol independent. The specific protocol support is not a major cost factor. A few years ago computers supported both USB and DIN connectors for mice and keyboards. The protocol and connectors were different but there was no problem supporting both standards on one computer because the incremental cost to support an additional protocol to provide the same basic function was insignificant.

Making a charge point that can handle both CHAdeMO and J1772 DC charging is just not a big deal, there is some minor additional hardware cost to support the extra cable, connector, and protocol, but the cost of the cable and connector are the major items, the protocol support is trivial.

Your point about Tesla licensing may be an issue, but it's not clear that they can prevent someone from making a "plug compatible" station anyway. IBM tried for decades to prevent third parties from making compatible storage devices etc without much success. In any case it is moot because Tesla are offering a CHAdeMO adaptor for $1000 so there is no need to support Tesla separately. Indeed, the price of the adapter suggests $1000 as the upper bound on the cost of supporting an additional DC charging protocol.

 

[cwerdna]

"Why take them out". It was a rhetorical device, I meant that if you consider the components of a charging station, you have all this stuff that is not related to the protocol and that the parts related to the specific protocol are only a very small part of the whole device. All J1772 chargers: level 1, level 2, level 3, DC have to support the same signaling protocol. If you consider the cost of the the protocol support it has to be very small as it is supported even in the cheapest charger and is a small part of even that device.

My point which I seem not to have explained well enough is that a charging station has a whole lot of stuff and costs that is protocol independent. The specific protocol support is not a major cost factor.

You are incorrect on the bolded part. J1772 for L1 and L2 EVSEs do NOT talk CAN and I don't think they talk GreenPHY PLC either. This is their protocol: http://code.google.com/p/open-evse/wiki/J1772Basics.

I think you're already a bit confused. For L1 and L2 AC charging over J1772, the EVSE is NOT a charger. It doesn't alter the voltage, convert AC to DC nor have any knowledge of the car's SoC, cell count, etc. The charger is on-board the car. The L1 and L2 J1772, the EVSE is basically a smart switch w/GFCI and surge protection. That's it.

This is the inside of a quality L2 EVSE: http://www.plugincars.com/sites/default/files/LEAF_evse_guts_02.jpg. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5664 has some more pics of EVSEs. http://code.google.com/p/open-evse/wiki/AssemblePlusV2 gives you an idea what's inside an Open EVSE.

For CHAdeMO, the large stationary unit IS the charger, does conversion to DC, alters the voltage, etc. With some effort, I was able to dig up the pic of the inside of a Blink CHAdeMO DC FC: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4524344381567&set=gm.464703140254019&type=1&theater.

Level 3? I think that's actually a misnomer. DC fast charger is where you get into another territory.

See diagram at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=262630#p262630.

Even the power requirements are different. For a single L2 AC, you'd typically have 240 or 208 volt input, anywhere from 16 amps to 40 amps (w/40 amps being rare). http://www.chargepoint.com/products-chargepoint-stations.php has a link to a data sheet for Chargepoint's current commercial EVSE. http://web.archive.org/web/20130403092428/http://chargepoint.com/products-chargepoint-stations.php has their older equipment. Also see "Miles Gained per Hour Charging" at http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67.

For http://nissanqc.com/, it requires 480 volt 3-phase power. I have a pic of the label on the back of an actual of those. It says input 480V 3 phase 60Hz 50KVA 60A. It says output is 50-500V DC 44kW max 120A.

I can't speak to other CHAdeMO or Frankenplug DC FCs.

There's also a CHAdeMO certification process: http://www.chademo.com/wp/technology/test/.

Why do you think that J1772 L2 EVSEs can be had for $500 to $1000 (for ones w/o any sort of billing equipment and card reader) while the cheapest CHAdeMO DC FC costs $15.5K? http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-09-24/tesla-building-250-000-chargers-for-model-s-drivers-in-highways mentions Tesla's Superchargers

The devices cost about $250,000 each and can power four to six cars at one time, Musk said.

I finally was able to dig up a label of the Superchargers at http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/14394-Harris-Ranch-Superchargers-and-Supercharging-Software-Update/page10?p=313192&viewfull=1#post313192. There are 3 Tesla Supercharger pics at https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10200569079453147&set=o.239198747743&type=1&permPage=1. Use the right/left arrows keys.

Another problem is that once you get into DC fast charging, the instantaneous power draws are so high that on many utilities, you end up facing expensive demand charges. So, for Superchargers, Tesla has put up solar panels to help mitigate that and also deployed grid storage in some locations: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/17607-Which-two-Supercharger-locations-have-grid-storage-already.

I don't know if the figures at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=134001#p134001 are still accurate as Tony likely knows a lot more about CHAdeMO and demand charges now but this still comes up frequently (e.g. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=332111#p332111).

 

[Oberon]

All J1772 chargers: level 1, level 2, level 3, DC have to support the same signaling protocol.

You are incorrect on the bolded part. J1772 for L1 and L2 EVSEs do NOT talk CAN and I don't think they talk GreenPHY PLC either. This is their protocol: http://code.google.com/p/open-evse/wiki/J1772Basics.

I think you're already a bit confused. For L1 and L2 AC charging over J1772, the EVSE is NOT a charger....
For CHAdeMO, the large stationary unit IS the charger, does conversion to DC, alters the voltage, etc.
...
Level 3? I think that's actually a misnomer. DC fast charger is where you get into another territory.

At no point did I claim that J1772 EVSE devices support CAN, you seem to have mis-read the part you claim is "incorrect". What it said is that all J1772 devices support J1772 signaling. The EVSE devices don't have to support the powerline signaling used only by the DC devices, but they all support the pilot and proximity signalling.

The distinction between AC/DC and EVSE and onboard charger vs DC external charger is not relevant to my original point since those parts are part of the power electronics, not part of the the signaling protocol which is concerned with communication from the external system to the vehicle.

"Level 3" is sometimes used informally to refer to DC charging, but possibly a misnomer.

None of this affects my original point which is that it is only slightly more expensive to build a DC charging station that supports multiple standards than one that supports only one standard. The primary cost is the extra cable and connector, which is very small relative to the cost of the rest of the DC charging station.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I'll tell you what; you obviously have it all figured out, so I'll give you a UL listed CHAdeMO charger and $500, and you'll give me back a CHAdeMO / Frankenplug charger with UL approval.

If you can't, you pay me back all the expenses. If you can, I throw in a $100,000 bonus, because you'd be the only one to be able to do this "easy" job.

It's common on the internet to find folks who know very little about something, yet think they're the expert.

Let me know when you accept my offer.

 

[xylhim]

I'll tell you what; you obviously have it all figured out, so I'll give you a UL listed CHAdeMO charger and $500, and you'll give me back a CHAdeMO / Frankenplug charger with UL approval.

If you can't, you pay me back all the expenses. If you can, I throw in a $100,000 bonus, because you'd be the only one to be able to do this "easy" job.

It's common on the internet to find folks who know very little about something, yet think they're the expert.

Let me know when you accept my offer.

Does he still get the bonus if stations with CHADeMO and SAE start popping up by next year?

Oh wait, that won't possibly happen because of sales projections, sales projections are stalling the whole process of installing more charging stations. OH I know, I'll string together 6 months of sales from the Spark and note the paltry emergence of SAE supported European manufacturers and call SAE dead on arrival. Yes, basing predictions on limited data (not talking about Leaf sales, just the Spark) is perfectly ok, but speculation about installation costs of a charging station is complete bunk.

Glad the flame war is continuing, weather has been getting pretty chilly! :lol:

 

[TonyWilliams]

Does he still get the bonus if stations with CHADeMO and SAE start popping up by next year?

..... speculation about installation costs of a charging station is complete bunk.

I'm fine with privately funded Frankenplugs, either individually or with world standard CHAdeMO. Since I'm confident that Frankenplug is largely DOA, I don't want tax payer money being wasted on this folly. But, if it helps get more CHAdeMO units in the ground around the world, then perhaps that's a good thing. Then, when Frankenplugs are collecting dust in the future, maybe they can be converted to Tesla or another CHAdeMO plug. Seems like a win, win, except for the wasted money on obsolete hardware.

The incorrect speculation posted about charging station COSTS is bunk, that's correct. Saying it would only cost $500 to add Frankenplugs is obviously bunk, also.

The paltry sales of installed chargers and compatible electric vehicles from the 8 Frankenplug Cast Members is fact.


Protocol .......... US Deployed . World Deployed .... US Cars .... Worldwide Cars
Frankenplug ........ 3 ......................... 0 ..................... 0 ............. 0 ... (moribund)
CHAdeMO ......... 350 ................... 4,000 .............. 40,000 .... 110,000 (growing fast)
Supercharger .... 300 ...................... 325 .............. 16,000 ..... 20,000 (extreme growth)


First, a quote from EVTV's Jack Rickard, "I watched dozens of these scenarios play out as the Internet developed. You can vote yourself blind. You can decree standards till hell freezes over. As soon as someone comes out with a better one that sells, nobody can even remember the name of your standard. You play, or you lose market share."

During a Tesla shareholder's call, when the SAE standard was pointed out to co-founder and CEO Elon Musk, he said "Yes, the SAE have a standard. But it sucks, which is why Tesla went its own way."

Let's review where GM and their German Frankenplug Cast Members are today:


1. Audi – June 3, 2012 – cancels EV plans. No Frankenplug car announced or planned. It's no surprise that they are exempt from CARB-ZEV compliance.

2. BMW – i3, Early 2014 – these guys are the only ones of any of the Frankenplug consortium to have a serious EV program, that goes beyond just meeting California Air Resources Board (CARB) - Zero Emissions Vehicle (ZEV) standards. So far, zero cars sold in USA and no public charge stations installed in the USA. Will use CHAdeMO in Japan, which means that they could also offer it here except for the economic-political battle from the Frankenplug consortium that they are a member of.

3. Chrysler / Fiat – they don’t even want to take “free” government money to develop EVs, and gave it back. The Fiat 500e compliance-only car has no Frankenplug, nor is one planned. Far less than 1000 cars sold. The CEO of the company is openly against EVs.

4. Daimler – working with Tesla on B Class for CARB-ZEV compliance with no DC fact charger of any kind. None sold to date. The Smart ED has no DC quick charge capability, either. No Frankenplug announced or planned. Far less than 1000 sold.

5. Ford – nada. The Focus EV is a luke warm effort for CARB-ZEV compliance, and they don’t even seem compelled to put much effort in that (Magna designed the car). No Frankenplug announced or planned. About 1000 sold.

6. General Motors – Spark EV, another CARB-ZEV compliance-only car. GM has sold about 500. Frankenplug is optional but not yet available, however it will cost $1500 extra per car. No other EV announced or expected. GM recently tried their Frankenplug shill in Korea, however the Koreans are obviously going with the world standard CHAdeMO. Another strikeout for Frankenplug.

7. Porsche – nada, no Frankenplug car announced or planned. Again, like Audi, it's no surprise that they are not required to meet CARB-ZEV compliance.

8. Renault – tentative and tepid announcement after the other 8 announced that they are “in”. No car announced to handle it, though, nor is one expected. They announced their own 43kW AC “Chameleon” fast charger and support of CHAdeMO that sister company Nissan uses. No Frankenplug announced or planned. They have produced thousands of EVs, however, and have numerous models planned or announced, none of which will use Frankenplug. This company does not offer cars in the USA, however their sister company Nissan is the world leader in EV sales with almost a 100,000 total sales, and they use CHAdeMO only.

9. Volkswagen – They plan to use converted Golf’s in 2014, presumably to be strictly CARB-ZEV compliance cars. While Volkswagen will use Frankenplug as the charging system for its EVs, the company will modify relevant units to accommodate the CHAdeMo system for the Japanese market, which means that they could also offer it here except for their eco-political battle from the Frankenplug consortium.

One VW executive remarked, “we don’t want to discriminate” on charging standards, explaining …the investors and the users will decide.”


*********

 

[cwerdna]

OH I know, I'll string together 6 months of sales from the Spark and note the paltry emergence of SAE supported European manufacturers and call SAE dead on arrival. Yes, basing predictions on limited data (not talking about Leaf sales, just the Spark) is perfectly ok,

Since we've already established Spark EV sales are puny and it seems GMs has no plans to expand sales in the US beyond 2 states, who else is planning to bring a Frankenplug equipped EV/PHEV to the US? What numbers will it sell in? What will be the take rate on Frankenplug on that vehicle?

but speculation about installation costs of a charging station is complete bunk.

Bunk? TonyWilliams has been involved in the installation and operation of at least one CHAdeMO DC FC so he's also aware of their operating costs as well. He has some experience with/done research into other CHAdeMO DC FCs and worked w/some other makers of them.

I met him in December 2011 at the aforementioned meeting. Even then, he knew a lot about Ecotality's follies/waste of taxpayer and investor money. They're behind the Blink network and their equipment, which includes crappy L2 EVSEs and crappy CHAdeMO DC FCs. They've recently gone bankrupt and been bought by Car Charging Group.

BTW, CCGI has very scary looking financials and to me, they're on the verge of going bankrupt too. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=331916#p331916 and http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=CCGI (remember, the numbers there are in thousands).

 

[xylhim]

So what happens when the volt has a larger battery pack that makes it more reasonable to have fast charging capabilities? You suspect GM will just drop their standard and go CHAdeMO?

It isn't a waste of tax payer money to have more chargers installed. From what I hear, the network of charging stations in Japan have encouraged the adoption of EVs around the country- consumers have less range anxiety and take longer trips than before. Regardless of standard, seeing more signs for "electric vehicle charging station" will assuage some of the fears the public has over EVs; the quicker our society can make this transition the better. Yeah, we're going to have some failures and set backs, but this transition into a more sustainable transportation system has been delayed for far too long.

 

[TonyWilliams]

So what happens when the volt has a larger battery pack that makes it more reasonable to have fast charging capabilities? You suspect GM will just drop their standard and go CHAdeMO?

It isn't a waste of tax payer money to have more chargers installed.... Regardless of standard, seeing more signs for "electric vehicle charging station" will assuage some of the fears the public has over EVs;

Ah, no, I'm extremely confident that GM won't use the world standard DC charging standard any more than they were able to build cars that could compete with the Japanese car invasion (GM's 50% US market share in 1960 has dropped below 20% today). Or, any more than they would successfully run a business handed to them by 100 years of previous generations without bankrupting it and then requiring $50 BILLION of government bailouts to prevent a total company collapse.

I'm not worried about GM in the EV big picture because they are and will continue to be late to the game. Building the Spark EV at the absolute minimum for CARB-ZEV compliance proves that. Frankenplug has one primary goal, and that's slowing down the EV adoption rate of Nissan by having an incompatible plug and communication protocol.

If you think a next generation Volt is going to take over the world with a Frankenplug, ok. I would suggest they would be more successful with CHAdeMO. The new Mitsubishi Outlander plug-in hybrid has CHAdeMO and is selling as fast as they can make it. I think it comes to the US next year.

It is a waste of taxpayer funds to support boutique infrastructure because GM wants it. Like the petulant child who must be told no, that's exactly what GM needs. So far, they have been getting told no regularly (like their recent attempts with Frankenplug in Korea).

What if Toyota and Ford got together and decided they wanted a new DC charging standard? Do we spend tax payer money on that? Are you going to build out the Chinese standard in the US with tax money? How about Chameleon AC fast chargers? Where does it stop? Believe me, if GM had put in the time, effort and money that Nissan, Mitsubishi, Tesla, Renault have put into their respective charge networks, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

The folks who are serious about EVs are just "doing it" every day. I would guess that nearly day, somewhere in the world, there is a CHAdeMO or Tesla Supercharger being installed. The train has left the station.

 

[markcmann]

Is it just me or is there anyone else getting tired of this thread?... :roll:

It appears to be the more popular thread on this forum. That would make your observation rather odd.

Let me guess... I'm hitting a little too close to home? Or, do you just have nothing productive to bring to the subject?

Actually I find the subject very interesting and I truly appreciate your vast knowledge on the subject but it seems that the same information is just being re-hashed over and over again by all posters involved. For pages and pages I keep expecting to read something new but it seems to be the same information just presented in a slightly different format. That's all, nothing against anyone contributing to the forum, just my opinion.

I too was originally disappointed that the DC fast charge option was not available when I first leased my Spark EV back in June but taking all the information presented in the forum on the subject into account, it appears GM's only intension is a failed attempt to slow the progress Nissan is making with their chosen CHAdeMO technology.

For me personally, I would just like to have a more mature infrastructure of Level 2 EVSE's in my area to give me the option to charge near work when wanting to travel somewhere after work besides my normal commute back home. Our office may be re-locating to a vacant facility near by and I have been told by our company VP's that they would install Level 2 EVSE's once occupied. And I'm the only one out of 150+ employees that drives an EV (currently anyway).

 

[Nashco]

Is it just me or is there anyone else getting tired of this thread?... :roll:

I really enjoy this thread and that all of the banter can be stuck in here until combo chargers start hitting the ground. There are a few parrots who troll here that i would love to have stop squawking the same thing repeatedly. Until then, at least they can be funneled here.

Hey Chademo fanbois, do you know where the Chademo plug is on an Accord PHEV? Why would they put it here, of all places?!?

There are pros and cons to the combo charger and Chademo. An open mind makes for a more valuable discussion.

Bryce

 

[TonyWilliams]

... Hey Chademo fanbois, do you know where the Chademo plug is on an Accord PHEV? Why would they put it here, of all places?!?

... There are pros and cons to the combo charger and Chademo. An open mind makes for a more valuable discussion.

Bryce

Nice load of grade school name calling there. Always the hallmark of a blowhard with no answers.

I don't speak for Honda, but I'm confident that no CHAdeMO plug is offered in the USA by any Honda car. Where Honda puts a plug has nothing to do with the protocol standard used. But, you knew that, so you're really just flinging turds.

By the way, Frankenplug promotor BMW will offer CHAdeMO in Japan markets (plus Tesla and VW), but they planned it so poorly that they had to put the J1772 plug under the hood.

Perhaps you could offer something of value to the thread? Why not tell us all the Frankenplug benefits that are "better" than anything else on the planet? I'm well versed in the GM talking points, if that's all you got (in addition to your low caliber trash talk).

 

[cwerdna]

... Hey Chademo fanbois, do you know where the Chademo plug is on an Accord PHEV? Why would they put it here, of all places?!?

... There are pros and cons to the combo charger and Chademo. An open mind makes for a more valuable discussion.

Bryce

...
I don't speak for Honda, but I'm confident that no CHAdeMO plug is offered in the USA by any Honda car. Where Honda puts a plug has nothing to do with the protocol standard used. But, you knew that, so you're really just flinging turds.

I also doubt the US Accord PHEV has any CHAdeMO inlet. That hole looks too small for CHAdeMO anyway. I see no mention of CHAdeMO nor DC fast charging when digging around the links on the left of http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-plug-in/ nor https://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/web/ACI49204.pdf‎.

 

[Nashco]

The combination of a typical J1772 AC plug and a chademo plug are significantly larger than a J1772 combo, Supercharger, etc. connector. The Chademo protocol certainly does have an impact on where an OEM puts the plug, as it is very large and cannot co-exist like the J1772 combo. This is a big problem for OEMs that an open minded person would consider as a negative point in the chademo vs others debate.

The picture I show above of a chademo connector in the trunk was taken BY ME at the Tokyo Motor Show last month, and it is an Accord plug in hybrid. For any who don't believe me, here's another reference photo to help you out. See the gaffers tape in this trunk picture that Motor Trend posted a year ago? What do you think it is covering?

http://image.motortrend.com/f/roadtests/coupes/1209_2013_honda_accord_first_look/43337706/2013-Honda-Accord-PHEV-tools.jpg

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1209_2013_honda_accord_first_look/

I brought up this example as an extreme case of how integrating chademo is much easier said than done. There is so much pro-chademo, anti-SAE combo chest pounding here that it's starting to really stink the room up. Let's act like grown ups and at least acknowledge that there are pros and cons that the people doing the vehicle development have considered, every design out there has them. If open minded discussion isn't an option, why bother with the discussion...just to practice typing?

Please keep in mind that if you want a Spark EV and you want fast charging from the factory, SAE combo is your only option. My personal experiences, knowledge, opinion, etc. will not change this. Neither will yours. It's unnecessary to piss all over this forum so repetitively about how chademo is bla bla bla. As mentioned earlier, I'm speaking with my pocketbook. I'm really excited for my Spark EV with DC fast charging to arrive. I'd be really damn surprised if it showed up with a chademo connector on it (or didn't show up with a DC charge connector at all) because of a few internet warriors slamming the SAE standard anywhere they can find a soapbox to stand on.

Bryce

 

[fengshui]

... Hey Chademo fanbois, do you know where the Chademo plug is on an Accord PHEV? Why would they put it here, of all places?!?

... There are pros and cons to the combo charger and Chademo. An open mind makes for a more valuable discussion.

Bryce

Nice load of grade school name calling there. Always the hallmark of a blowhard with no answers.

Perhaps you could offer something of value to the thread? Why not tell us all the Frankenplug benefits that are "better" than anything else on the planet? I'm well versed in the GM talking points, if that's all you got (in addition to your low caliber trash talk).

Guys, while this debate is certainly interesting, please keep the conversation civil. I will (and have been) delete posts that don't contribute meaningfully to the discussion.

 

[xylhim]

Ok, trying to keep conversation less repetitive and civil...

I looked up an article about the betamax vs. VHS format: http://www.mediacollege.com/video/format/compare/betamax-vhs.html

According to the article, there where numerous reasons why VHS came out on top:

...slicker marketing (of VHS)...
...licensing problems between Sony and other companies...
...VHS machines where much simpler and easier to manufacture...
...recording length (longer for VHS)...

It's also interesting to note that that format war took 15 years to pan out.

But perhaps the EV format war will look more like the Blueray vs. HD DVD debacle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_definition_optical_disc_format_war

Reasons for Blueray coming out on top:

was primarily decided by two factors: shifting business alliances, including decisions by major film studios and retail distributors, and Sony's decision to include a Blu-ray player in the PlayStation 3 video game console.

This war only lasted a few years, and was probably more akin to the EV fast charging fight going on now. Instead of the party lines being Universal, Disney, Colombia, etc, we got Nissan, GM, Mitsubishi, BWC, etc. So the question is, what will be the PS3 equivalent in the EV world that wins in this format war? I think we know the opinions from many who have already posted, but hopefully some newcomers can chime in with their views!

 

[TonyWilliams]

Ok, trying to keep conversation less repetitive and civil...

I think we know the opinions from many who have already posted, but hopefully some newcomers can chime in with their views!

We'll be looking forward to the new positive you! I'm confident you can do it.

If you want a poll to see what Spark EV owners who ALREADY own the car want, I'll guess that it's whatever GM is offering. That's why it's a problem; their standard doesn't work with the thousands of existing chargers around the world.

If you educate people up front before they buy a car with a niche charging standard, at least they know the limitations. A car purchase is an order of magnitude greater than a VHS versus Betamax economic war, but exactly the same game.

Even the most obtuse Frankenplug parrot can't refute the facts that there aren't widespread GM/German car DC chargers, nor is there a projected flood of them on the horizon.

CHAdeMO equipped cars are added to the world at about 3000-4000 per month, with compatible DC chargers added daily.

If you have that simple info, and still want to buy the foreign built Spark EV (and live in the CARB-ZEV states of California or Oregon, or South Korea), then buy one!!! They're cheap, and a very useful for an under 100 mile range car.

If you're betting on a Frankenplug charger popping up everywhere like CHAdeMO and Tesla Superchargers, I'll take that bet.

 

[Oberon]

As a Spark lease owner I did not wait for the quick charge option because the car does 90+% of our trips without any recharging and we have a Fit for the rest. So I don't really have a dog in this fight. However, I'm curious to know what the technical merits of each of the current standards are. There has been a lot posted about standards wars, market share, political and marketing tactics etc, but not much about the actual technology and implementations.

So if you have actual facts or experience about one or more of the quick charge types from a technical perspective please do tell. But keep it technical, I'm not interested in the horse race.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... I'm curious to know what the technical merits of each of the current standards are.

Great question that nobody asks!!! Most are just concerned with the rhetoric.

I do know the technical details of both systems.

In a nutshell, all DC chargers take the AC power from the electric power company's transformer, which is run through a big switch to turn the power on and off. The power then goes into a rectifier of some design, and finally it comes out the charger as DC power to be stored in your car's battery. Yes, there are DC chargers that can accept DC input voltage, also.

It doesn't matter if it's the "wall wart" that rechargers your cell phone, or the charger that powers your car, a properly designed charger can accept AC electrical power, convert it to DC at the proper voltage for the battery, and charge it up. An inlet voltage of 100 volts AC to about 600 volts AC (because that's what transformers around the world use), single or three phase AC at 50 or 60 hz is the typical power available around the world. As stated, a rare few can take DC power, too.

The output of these DC chargers will be 100 volts DC (yes, there are CHAdeMO equipped motorcycles from ZERO that use 100 volts) all the way up to 500 volts DC. Most electric vehicles, like the Spark EV, have batteries between about 300-400 volt DC. Batteries can't store AC power.

So, that's what they all share and that has NOTHING to do with the plug that goes into your car, nor the communication protocol used by the car to control the charger. Let's face it, any plug can have an adaptor designed so that any charger could plug into other cars.

My opinion is that the "perfect" worldwide universal charge plug design would handle both single and three phase AC power plus DC power. Plugs that meet this standard are the Mennekes (German design used in Europe), the similar China standard, and the Tesla version of the Mennekes plug used outside of the USA/Canada.

So, the only difficult bit in this whole game is how the car and the charger talk to each other. This "talking" is required both for safety and for proper charging of the battery. No matter what the communication protocol is, is has to be the same on the car and the charger.

So, around the world, the two methods to base the communication on are CAN and PLC. Every car in the world uses CAN to control it, including the Spark EV, so it was an easy and logical choice for CHAdeMO to use CAN as the basis for its communication. The China DC protocol also uses CAN.

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The CAN bus started originally in 1983 in Germany. The CAN protocol was officially released in 1986 at the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) congress in Detroit, Michigan. So, let me reiterate that; the CAN bus protocol was approved by SAE almost 30 years ago. All cars today use CAN bus that are sold in the developed western world and it's use is required by law/regulation in virtually all of them.

Learn about CAN here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus

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The proposed GM / German DC charger protocol design uses PLC, as does US auto electric vehicle manufacturer Tesla.

Power-line technology enables in-vehicle network communication of data, voice, music and video signals by digital means over direct current (DC) battery power-line, so that one wire can do two jobs; carry power and send signals.

The SAE J1772 committee developing standard connectors for plug-in electric vehicles proposes to use power line communication between the vehicle, off-board charging station, and the smart grid, without requiring an additional pin.

The SAE specification charger protocol uses GreenPHY patented technology.

Learn more about PLC here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_line_communication

Learn more about GreenPHY here:

http://www.homeplug.org/tech/homeplug_gp




Here I am holding the Tesla specification Mennekes type plug:

 

[cwerdna]

The combination of a typical J1772 AC plug and a chademo plug are significantly larger than a J1772 combo, Supercharger, etc. connector. The Chademo protocol certainly does have an impact on where an OEM puts the plug, as it is very large and cannot co-exist like the J1772 combo. This is a big problem for OEMs that an open minded person would consider as a negative point in the chademo vs others debate.

The J1772 CCS plug is pretty large too. As for where OEM puts the plug, co-existing, etc. that's what happens when some players decide to use an existing ICE platform and want to put the port where the gas hole went. Many current J1772 AC charging vehicles only (e.g. Volt and FFE) don't even have space at the inlet side for the additional 2 pins where Frankenplug goes.

The picture I show above of a chademo connector in the trunk was taken BY ME at the Tokyo Motor Show last month, and it is an Accord plug in hybrid. For any who don't believe me, here's another reference photo to help you out. See the gaffers tape in this trunk picture that Motor Trend posted a year ago? What do you think it is covering?

So, did someone tell you it was CHAdeMO? Did you open the cover and confirm it had all the rights pins for CHAdeMO? Was it even the right size? Looks too small to me. For all I know, it's just leads to a service (disconnect) plug, safety disconnect switch, a fuse or fusible link.

I can't read Japanese at all but digging around these URLs, I see no mention of CHAdeMO.
http://www.honda.co.jp/ACCORD-PHEV/
http://www.honda.co.jp/ACCORD-PHEV/webcatalog/performance/
http://www.honda.co.jp/ACCORD-PHEV/webcatalog/equipment/list/

Got a press release or reputable source that says the JDM Accord PHEV has CHAdeMO? It's not listed at http://www.chademo.com/wp/chademo-ev/.