Replacement battery cost

[oilerlord]

I will do like oilerlord and let "Sparkie" age gracefully. After an easy 8 amp L1 EVSE fully charge overnight, my 2014 Spark EV's guess-o-meter read 105 miles this morning. Then, I drove 12.2 miles around town in stop and go traffic and averaged 6.4 mi / kWh. When I returned home, the guess-o-meter still read 100 miles. 100 miles left plus 12.2 miles driven gives me 112.2 miles of potential range. Not bad! Not bad at all! Gotta love this car!

In all candor, your driving style is probably why you're getting the above 110 miles of range. Most "normal" drivers accelerate to stop signs, drive 80 mph on the freeway, vaporize their tires when the light turns green, and then complain that their car is getting poor fuel economy. Kudos on getting such great efficiency with your car. I thought I was doing pretty decent with my Jetta wagon, but you've got me beat!

http://www.fuelly.com/driver/oilerlord/jetta

 

[SparkevBlogspot]

There is an app called "Leaf Spy Pro"

I'm not aware of anything like this, yet, but bicycleguy built something based on solder to query battery info.

http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4166&p=14662#p14662

It may be possible to give custom PID to torque pro to do similar. Or you can bug bicycleguy to make it more user friendly and sell you one of those. :lol: (love ya, bicycleguy!)

vaporize their tires when the light turns green

This is one of the biggest "problems" with SparkEV. The temptation is just too great!

I was doing pretty decent with my Jetta wagon, but you've got me beat!

You can't really compare gas car to EV. Going by energy use definition of MPGe (ie, EPA definition), SparkEV has about 1/2 gallon of gas energy equivalent in battery. Since he's getting 100+ miles range by GOM, he's probably getting close to 200 MPGe.

If you had SparkEV and you drove like your Jetta, it's not known if you'd do worse. As I wrote in range blog, energy use characteristics is very different. If you only drove without stopping at 20 to 30 mph (ie, freeway traffic and only use regen), you'd get pretty fantastic MPGe; I sometimes get 7 mi/kWh reported by car (7mi/kWh * 33.7kWh/gal = 240 MPGe). If I always drove in traffic like this with 18 kWh battery, GOM would show 120 miles range, which sometimes happens for max miles.

But when it comes to actual out of pocket cost, he's probably paying in energy more than 100 MPG gas car (he has solar). Without solar, he'd pay something like 60 MPG gas car. I explore MPG equivalent to money (MPGe$) in my blog, but that's based on 4 mi/kWh (very conservative estimate including charger loss).

http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2015/05/spark-ev-miles-per-gallon-this-table.html

The limited warranty booklet also mentioned that the dealer could perform a capacity measurement but would need the car for 24 hours.

Meanwhile, you can do rough capacity estimates using % battery reported at DCFC. I wrote this when I was young and naive, but still useful for quick check of battery capacity.

http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2015/05/battery-capacity-estimate.html

 

[oilerlord]

(he has solar)

I've got solar too. "Saving money" with an EV can be a slippery slope, but it bugs me getting a pitiful $0.065 per kWh microgeneration credit from my poco. We do have net metering, but the poco doesn't allow us to bank hours for the winter, or even when the sun goes down. For that reason, I'd rather store and use my excess generated kWh in a car than export them to the grid for peanuts. My Jetta is quite fuel efficient but I'd probably still save about $900 per year not buying diesel (assuming prices normalize higher).

https://easyview.auroravision.net/easyview/index.html?entityId=7466210

 

[SparkevBlogspot]

I'd rather store and use my excess generated kWh in a car

That can be tricky for most people as we generally work during the day and charge at night. Without good compensation through net metering, it does take a hit, though better than not having solar. MrDRMorgan is retired, so he sleeps all day while charging with solar then goes out partying all night. Maybe retirement is in your near future, so you can party with him? :lol:

 

[oilerlord]

That can be tricky for most people as we generally work during the day and charge at night. Without good compensation through net metering, it does take a hit, though better than not having solar. MrDRMorgan is retired, so he sleeps all day while charging with solar then goes out partying all night. Maybe retirement is in your near future, so you can party with him? :lol:

I do IT consulting, so I'm generally home mornings and see clients in the afternoon. Today, the sun was up at 7:20AM. We have long hours of daylight in the summer - 17.5 hours at the summer solstice, so when I get home, whatever charge I miss in the morning may be able to be made up when I get home. I'm not retired but I may throw a party after I buy my first EV.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

I'd rather store and use my excess generated kWh in a car

That can be tricky for most people as we generally work during the day and charge at night. Without good compensation through net metering, it does take a hit, though better than not having solar. MrDRMorgan is retired, so he sleeps all day while charging with solar then goes out partying all night. Maybe retirement is in your near future, so you can party with him? :lol:

Actually, I spend all day on this blogspot studying new and interesting things to learn about and do with my Spark EVs. I do have solar and net metering and I get full credit for each kWh my solar system offsets. Prior to getting the EVs, my solar system produced sufficient power annually to completely offset the total annual power consumed by my home and leave a surplus of ~400 kWh for which I got paid $0.045 per kWh. My PG&E cost per kWh is, as of 1 March 2016, $0.18212 for the baseline tier quantity which I rarely exceed. I estimate I now, for both EVs, use about 300 kWh more per month than my solar system produces.

Perhaps it is time to come out of retirement. Maybe, just maybe, I could sell Spark EVs, NUTS and BOLTS!!!

 

[SparkevBlogspot]

I may throw a party after I buy my first EV.

I thought you already have an EV and was considering SparkEV as second. As I mentioned in my previous lengthy post, all of current EV (and hybrids) will be practically worthless after 10+ years when the battery dies, so it's a decision as to how much you're willing to lose.

If you're considering new, SparkEV is the best bang for the buck, especially with full subsidy ($7.5K fed + $2.5K CA + X in your county = more than $10K). You can sometimes find great lease deals, as low as $62/mo as I show in "sparkev-pricing-and-depreciation" blog post; check out http://ev-vin.blogspot.com to compare some lease deals.

Some here are leasing it for almost free with their county subsidy. Even the 2014 you mentioned might be a great deal to buy. Also to consider is the possibility that enthusiasts will try to keep it alive after 10 years as it being the first GM EV, rare, and quickest in its class are some redeeming qualities.

If you cannot take full subsidy, and if you can live with used, 2013 and newer Leaf might be cheaper (make sure to get SV/SL). But Leaf is boring, slow to accelerate, slow to fast charge, and the battery lacks cooling (really bad for battery life). Unless you really need to seat 5 people regularly, it's not that good.

Next decent one might be BMW i3, but that's expensive, both new and used. In fact, I have a blog post on EV ranking that shows "objectively" why SparkEV is the best. I seem to have blog post on just about every topic. ;-)

http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2015/09/ev-ranking.html

 

[oilerlord]

MrDrMorgan,

I have to admit that I've also become somewhat obsessed about everything kWh since installing my solar last August, and that has extended into researching / finding the "right" EV. I met up with a fellow mychevysparkev member a few weeks back, and he graciously let me take his Spark EV for a spin. Loved it. It's a fun-to-drive car with enough comfort, ergonomics, high efficiency, and a killer bargain on the used market. Initially, I found it a little small but with the back seats folded, two sets of golf clubs and even my dog's crate would fit. I was really excited about getting one myself until I found out the price of replacing the battery - but in reality, that point probably is much ado about nothing.

The Spark EV is an excellent overall package, and for the relatively little cash needed to buy a used one...perhaps future resale value really doesn't matter since I'd recover the majority of the car's cost in fuel & maintenance savings over the life of the car. It's one thing to ponder the resale value and replacement battery cost for an $80,000 Tesla, but quite another for a $14,000 Spark EV. Worst case, if I choose to sell that $14,000 car in 2022 (or later), and the battery holds enough juice to drive 40 miles, you'd think someone would still take it off my hands for $3,000.

 

[oilerlord]

I thought you already have an EV and was considering SparkEV as second. As I mentioned in my previous lengthy post, all of current EV (and hybrids) will be practically worthless after 10+ years when the battery dies, so it's a decision as to how much you're willing to lose.

If you're considering new, SparkEV is the best bang for the buck, especially with full subsidy ($7.5K fed + $2.5K CA + X in your county = more than $10K). You can sometimes find great lease deals, as low as $62/mo as I show in "sparkev-pricing-and-depreciation" blog post; check out http://ev-vin.blogspot.com to compare some lease deals.

Some here are leasing it for almost free with their county subsidy. Even the 2014 you mentioned might be a great deal to buy. Also to consider is the possibility that enthusiasts will try to keep it alive after 10 years as it being the first GM EV, rare, and quickest in its class are some redeeming qualities.

If you cannot take full subsidy, and if you can live with used, 2013 and newer Leaf might be cheaper (make sure to get SV/SL). But Leaf is boring, slow to accelerate, slow to fast charge, and the battery lacks cooling (really bad for battery life). Unless you really need to seat 5 people regularly, it's not that good.

Next decent one might be BMW i3, but that's expensive, both new and used. In fact, I have a blog post on EV ranking that shows "objectively" why SparkEV is the best. I seem to have blog post on just about every topic. ;-)

http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2015/09/ev-ranking.html

Nope, this would be my first EV. We don't have EV subsidies available where I live, which is why I'm looking to buy used, and "bang for buck" is my biggest consideration. To me, the Leaf screams "look at me, I'm an EV", and the i3 is too expensive and a little too oddball. Fast charging doesn't matter much since we don't have any DC charging (with the exception of a Tesla Supercharger 100 miles away), and I have a 220v 15A outlet in the garage, which would charge fast enough for my purposes.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

MrDrMorgan,

I have to admit that I've also become somewhat obsessed about everything kWh since installing my solar last August, and that has extended into researching / finding the "right" EV. I met up with a fellow mychevysparkev member a few weeks back, and he graciously let me take his Spark EV for a spin. Loved it. It's a fun-to-drive car with enough comfort, ergonomics, high efficiency, and a killer bargain on the used market. Initially, I found it a little small but with the back seats folded, two sets of golf clubs and even my dog's crate would fit. I was really excited about getting one myself until I found out the price of replacing the battery - but in reality, that point probably is much ado about nothing.

The Spark EV is an excellent overall package, and for the relatively little cash needed to buy a used one...perhaps future resale value really doesn't matter since I'd recover the majority of the car's cost in fuel & maintenance savings over the life of the car. It's one thing to ponder the resale value and replacement battery cost for an $80,000 Tesla, but quite another for a $14,000 Spark EV. Worst case, if I choose to sell that $14,000 car in 2022 (or later), and the battery holds enough juice to drive 40 miles, you'd think someone would still take it off my hands for $3,000.

I have always wanted an electric car ever since the idea was first proposed so I started following the Spark EV in 2013. At the end of May last year, I was able to lease a new 2015 Spark EV 2LT with the quick charge option. Available to me at that time was a $2500 California rebate and a $3000 county rebate so my net cost per month to lease the car is about $8.00 (eight). Essentially, the car costs me almost nothing for 3 years. The buy-out is about $14,500 but I am looking for a much lower price when it comes time to give the car back. In August last year I also found a used 2014 Spark EV 2 LT (no quick charge option) in factory new condition and with only 1500 miles on it for $13,897 and I bought it. It has been completely trouble free and is giving me great range and performance. I have two more years to decide whether I will keep and buy the 2015 or not but I will be keeping the 2014 until it quits running. Even a 40 to 50 Mile range will still be useful to me.

 

[SparkevBlogspot]

"bang for buck" is my biggest consideration

If you mean 0-60 performance per dollar, there's no question SparkEV is the best choice. It's even better than Corvette or Tesla P90D with Ludicrous mode as I show in EV ranking.

We don't have EV subsidies available where I live

Since $7.5K tax credit to buy new EV is US wide, are you not in US? CA and MD just give extra boost with $2.5K and $2.3K, respectively, and CA rebate also apply for leases.

since we don't have any DC charging

At home or work, of course, it doesn't matter. But that is a concern with public charging. With 3.3kW L2AC of SparkEV, it'd take twice as long to charge using public L2AC chargers than 6.6kW cars like Fiat 500e. You might say you never plan to use public charger, but when you do need it, it's awful. I tried it for 30 minutes to get to DCFC, and it was very annoying to see it charge so slowly. Personally, I wouldn't get an EV without DCFC; it's just too limiting.

I have a 220v 15A outlet in the garage, which would charge fast enough for my purposes.

15A might be cutting it too close. 3.3kW is 15A, but 3.3kW EVSE I have is rated for 16A probably to compensate for voltage drop in wiring. Better might be to have 20A service. SparkEV would not draw more than 3.3kW, so it doesn't matter what EVSE you get as long as house wiring holds up.

But if you get Fiat 500e or other EV with higher power L2AC charger, you have to make sure to get 3.3kW EVSE for home to not overload your home wiring.

 

[sTeeve]

Battery degradation is absolutely quantifiable, just not through the guess-o-meter. I don't know if there are reporting tools available to the public that you hook up to the car's OBD2 port that report the health of each cell - but they do exist. There is an app called "Leaf Spy Pro" that does this for the Leaf, but I'm not sure if anything like that exists for the Spark EV. For the hobbyist looking to rebuild a Nissan Leaf battery pack on their own, that tool is essential in identifying failed or degraded cells.

I've been using Torque Pro for about 9 months or so (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.prowl.torque). It's running on a 7" Galaxy Tab GT-P1000 (1st version). I have an OBDII Bluetooth adapter talking to the tablet.

It has many capabilities and can display virtually any info from the Spark EV that is desired...except "gids". The interface was developed by the Chevy Volt enthusiasts over at gm-volt.com.

This thread talks about "gids" in the Volt: http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread...ery-capacity-loss-at-worst-at-14k-miles/page2

Here's a snippet: "I monitor my Volt with an OBDII.. and my raw SOC levels (something like gids) has not changed in 14 months.."

My understanding is that "gids" is the expression used to describe battery health. It looks like Torque Pro doesn't offer that feature, so tboults is trying to compute it.

-Bob K.

 

[SparkevBlogspot]

From researching Leaf, "gids" is usable battery capacity while soc (state of charge) is absolute battery capacity. It's named after Gary Gidding.

http://www.plugincars.com/battery-capacity-loss-it-really-about-location-location-location-127008.html

When "gids" is 0%, soc would be X% where X is some reserve capacity. Obviously, you don't want to run Li battery down to completely dead. For Leaf, there seem to be 22 kWh usable (gids) out of 24 kWh battery (soc). From few range tests, 2014 SparkEV seem to be 19 kWh usable (gids) out of 21.3 kWh battery (soc). 2015 seem to be 18 kWh out of 18.4 kWh.

But then, GM definition of gids might be opposite of Leaf.

 

[kevin]

From researching Leaf, "gids" is usable battery capacity while soc (state of charge) is absolute battery capacity. It's named after Gary Gidding.

http://www.plugincars.com/battery-capacity-loss-it-really-about-location-location-location-127008.html

When "gids" is 0%, soc would be X% where X is some reserve capacity. Obviously, you don't want to run Li battery down to completely dead. For Leaf, there seem to be 22 kWh usable (gids) out of 24 kWh battery (soc). From few range tests, 2014 SparkEV seem to be 19 kWh usable (gids) out of 21.3 kWh battery (soc). 2015 seem to be 18 kWh out of 18.4 kWh.

But then, GM definition of gids might be opposite of Leaf.

One way to measure the battery capacity is to use the Energy Screen which gives the energy consumed and percentage used then extrapolate from those measurments.

I only use discharges that are >50%. I collect the data by taking a photo of the various screens just before I charge and then enter it into the spread sheet later.

This is the capacity of my 2014 Spark over the last two and a half years. It has degraded about 10% and is now about 17kWh from 19.5kWh initially. The max range has dropped somewhat from ~111 to 104 miles (with some seasonal variation).

kevin

 

[oilerlord]

re: "bang for buck" is my biggest consideration

I'm looking to hit a budget of $12,000 - $15,000 and get the best overall used EV I can find. "Best" of course is subjective, but I'd rank price, range, battery longevity, fun-to-drive, ergonomics, and future resale value factoring into the bang for buck criteria. It doesn't matter that the car is a couple of years old, but it's going to be in nearly new condition, have some remaining warranty, and under 5,000 miles on it. I did consider an iMiEV because some can be had for under $9,000 - but it looks and feels cheaply made. By contrast, the Spark EV is a Bentley.

The comparison in your blog was pretty much in line with my own research. The Spark EV is an exceptional value.

I'm in Alberta, Canada. A couple of Canadian provinces offer subsidies, we have none. Good tip about upgrading the circuit to 20 amps. I'll look into it.

 

[nikwax]

The Spark EV is an excellent overall package, and for the relatively little cash needed to buy a used one...perhaps future resale value really doesn't matter since I'd recover the majority of the car's cost in fuel & maintenance savings over the life of the car. It's one thing to ponder the resale value and replacement battery cost for an $80,000 Tesla, but quite another for a $14,000 Spark EV. Worst case, if I choose to sell that $14,000 car in 2022 (or later), and the battery holds enough juice to drive 40 miles, you'd think someone would still take it off my hands for $3,000.

regarding battery replacement cost: it doesn't matter what a battery pack would cost to replace today, because you're not going to buy one today or tomorrow or any time in the next decade. Ten years in the future, today's battery technology may well look like Model T tech. Replacement battery packs could likely be sourced through scrap dealers (where Prius owners buy replacement packs these days), battery pack rebuilders, or perhaps we'll have companies upgrading them to future technology on a small scale.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

I will do like oilerlord and let "Sparkie" age gracefully. After an easy 8 amp L1 EVSE fully charge overnight, my 2014 Spark EV's guess-o-meter read 105 miles this morning. Then, I drove 12.2 miles around town in stop and go traffic and averaged 6.4 mi / kWh. When I returned home, the guess-o-meter still read 100 miles. 100 miles left plus 12.2 miles driven gives me 112.2 miles of potential range. Not bad! Not bad at all! Gotta love this car!

In all candor, your driving style is probably why you're getting the above 110 miles of range. Most "normal" drivers accelerate to stop signs, drive 80 mph on the freeway, vaporize their tires when the light turns green, and then complain that their car is getting poor fuel economy. Kudos on getting such great efficiency with your car. I thought I was doing pretty decent with my Jetta wagon, but you've got me beat!

http://www.fuelly.com/driver/oilerlord/jetta

Yep! Using your description of "normal", I drive in a non-normal way. I have 2 ICEs - a 2002 Honda Accord with 157K miles on it and a 1999 Chevy Silverado pickup truck with 178K miles on it and it still has the original brakes! Today, my wife and I took the 2015 Spark EV for a run and we drove to Oakland, CA and back for 132 miles round trip. Road speed was 60-70 mph most of the entire trip and I still achieved 5.7 mi/kWh for the entire trip. Yep, I drive in a non-normal manner. :lol:

 

[NORTON]

One way to measure the battery capacity is to use the Energy Screen which gives the energy consumed and percentage used then extrapolate from those measurments.

I only use discharges that are >50%. I collect the data by taking a photo of the various screens just before I charge and then enter it into the spread sheet later.

This is the capacity of my 2014 Spark over the last two and a half years. It has degraded about 10% and is now about 17kWh from 19.5kWh initially. The max range has dropped somewhat from ~111 to 104 miles (with some seasonal variation).

kevin

Kevin,
I trying to understand what you are plotting. My bold (above) must be the main part of your data gathering, correct?

I know the GOM can not be used for anything other then 'Guess Trending'.

I'm trying to understand how I can start plotting the way you are doing it.

It's just my commutes and weekend blasts are all over the spectrum of efficiency.

Especially this time of year. It can be a cold morning, using comfortable heat, blasting along with all my pals in the left lane of an interstate at 70-80 MPH.
Then my evening commute home can be 35* warmer, no climate control, taking the back roads at a max of 50 MPH and use a fraction of the energy compared to the morning commute.
In fact my evening commute (after a full charge) can start with 72 miles on the GOM and I arrive home with 62 miles displayed after a +29 mile drive.

Note: I try to only charge at work. So would I only take a data point in the mornings when arriving at the free public L2?
If I use the fast way to and from work my commute may be less than 50 miles. In nice weather this may be less than 50% battery usage daily. Will this not be good data?

How does your method take in to account climate control use and ambient temp differences
Thanks for any help you can give us on your system!

 

[NORTON]

...After an easy 8 amp L1 EVSE fully charge overnight, my 2014 Spark EV's guess-o-meter read 105 miles this morning. Then, I drove 12.2 miles around town in stop and go traffic and averaged 6.4 mi / kWh....
... Today, my wife and I took the 2015 Spark EV for a run and we drove to Oakland, CA and back for 132 miles round trip. Road speed was 60-70 mph most of the entire trip and I still achieved 5.7 mi/kWh for the entire trip.

These numbers are hard to believe. Are these 'round trips' to negate elevation change and wind?

How slow do you go? Do you stay with traffic or are you guys like those hyper-miling Prius drivers that no one loves?

In cold weather and at interstate speeds I can be in the low 3.x miles/kWh.

Do you guys believe your charge rate has any bearing on your driving results? 1kW, 1.4kW, 3.3kW or 48kW. I only use the two highest rates.
Maybe it's the quality of California electrons?!?

 

[NORTON]

.... Ten years in the future, today's battery technology may well look like Model T tech. Replacement battery packs could likely be sourced through scrap dealers (where Prius owners buy replacement packs these days), battery pack rebuilders, or perhaps we'll have companies upgrading them to future technology on a small scale.

This is so true. In fact the 'Pack' does not NEED to be replaced. Only the aged cells within.
Someone with 'certain' skills might be able to remove the old A123 cells and replace them with a new version that may be smaller and more potent than the original cells. All the temp sensors, cooling plate, connections, etc, would/could remain the same.

My gasser is a 2001 Honda Insight. There are new improved cells being used to rebuild those battery packs. Mine could use some. But I've lost that lovin' feeling.
Who needs a 71 MPG Hiwy EPA rated (the record holder!) 1st gen hybrid!?! :mrgreen:
I never use it and I'm thinking I can just rent a car when I need to do road trips.