Quick way to check battery when buying used Spark?

[Puregsr]

They called back, agreeing with my price but said there are other people coming in to check out the car and so I must act now.

Unfortunately, urgent situation arose that I can't buy the car right at this moment, not that I'm playing a hard bargain with the dealer. Maybe I should wait for bolt price to come down, but soon I'm hoping to be a proud Sparke owner.

 

[NORTON]

...but said there are other people coming in to check out the car and so I must act now.....

They always say that ! :lol: Have you figured out how to tell if they are lying? :roll:

Let them stew. They don't need any explanations from you.

However, $8000 for a modern EV with a rated 82 mile range would be an excellent stable mate to a Bolt.
If you think a Bolt is possibly in your future you definitely need to install a 7.2kW EVSE no matter what EV you get now.

Good Luck!

 

[Puregsr]

>>>>Have you figured out how to tell if they are lying?

When their lips are moving. :lol:

I tried not to chitchat with them but they kept trying to ask what I do for a living. I actually rode my home-built electric bike there.
I should have said, "I'm here on a Wednesday morning, rode here on a bike. Either I'm unemployed or got too much money."

Of course the first thing they asked me is how I'm going to pay for the car, finance or cash. When I told them that I'm exploring all options, they said it doesn't matter to them, since they don't do in-house financing, only through the banks. Like they won't try to tack on a few percentages :roll: I do want to believe him though.

 

[NORTON]

When their lips are moving. :lol:

I actually rode my home-built electric bike there.
I should have said, "I'm here on a Wednesday morning, rode here on a bike. Either I'm unemployed or got too much money."
.....

Ding ding ding. You figured it out! You should dik with them with answers like that! :lol:
Always say "Out the Door Cash Price". They respond to those words....the turkeys...

Have you looked at what is available in a ~500 mile radius ?
Do you know about the Plugshare app and how to filter it for just L2 and CCS? You need a DCFC Spark EV and CCS stations on your route. EV Road Trip !!! :mrgreen:

Now, off topic, Ebikes !!!!
I'm obsessing over which Mid-drive ebike kit I should get for my FS mtn bike. I managed to cancel a $940 Amazon order after 5 days of inactivity. I told them I was going to measure the battery pack technically. It was rated as a 840Wh unit. That's 0.84kWh to us EV car owners!
Fake 18650 cells are a problem(Tesla's method of building a pack, only genuine cells obviously) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOshOXcSkDA&t=2s

There are Torque Sensing assist (500 W) and simple Pedal Assist (750-1000W) units . No hub motors for me. SRAM even makes drive trains for ebikes now!
Technical subject and off topic....
We should PM!

 

[scrambler]

There are Torque Sensing assist (500 W) and simple Pedal Assist (750-1000W) units . No hub motors for me. SRAM even makes drive trains for ebikes now!

The guys at Flx ebikes now have a bike based on the new Bafang Ultramotor 1000W (1600W peak) mid drive, with integrated Torque and speed sensor.
https://flx.bike/shop/flx-blade/

Their other bikes are also now using the 350W (750W peak) integrated Bafang Max mid drive, which also has Integrated torque and speed sensing
https://flx.bike/product-category/bikes/

If you want to pedal your bike, integrated torque sensing systems are so much better than cadence based pedal assist. They really just make you feel like you are super human
Their bikes also have a throttle for when you dont feel like pedaling .

I just wish they had options for Integrated gear hubs (Geared or even better CVT like NuVinci) so we could loose the derailleur, and enjoy pure simplicity and no maintenance.

 

[Puregsr]

When their lips are moving. :lol:

I actually rode my home-built electric bike there.
I should have said, "I'm here on a Wednesday morning, rode here on a bike. Either I'm unemployed or got too much money."
.....

Ding ding ding. You figured it out! You should dik with them with answers like that! :lol:
Always say "Out the Door Cash Price". They respond to those words....the turkeys...

Have you looked at what is available in a ~500 mile radius ?
Do you know about the Plugshare app and how to filter it for just L2 and CCS? You need a DCFC Spark EV and CCS stations on your route. EV Road Trip !!! :mrgreen:

Now, off topic, Ebikes !!!!
I'm obsessing over which Mid-drive ebike kit I should get for my FS mtn bike. I managed to cancel a $940 Amazon order after 5 days of inactivity. I told them I was going to measure the battery pack technically. It was rated as a 840Wh unit. That's 0.84kWh to us EV car owners!
Fake 18650 cells are a problem(Tesla's method of building a pack, only genuine cells obviously) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOshOXcSkDA&t=2s

There are Torque Sensing assist (500 W) and simple Pedal Assist (750-1000W) units . No hub motors for me. SRAM even makes drive trains for ebikes now!
Technical subject and off topic....
We should PM!

Yea, this is a whole different topic. Come hang out at http://www.endless-sphere.com.
There are a lot of great commercially built electric mountain bikes using the Yamaha or the Bosch motor. If you want to DIY, there are tons of options, but likely won't really have the fine torque sensing capability as Yamaha/Bosch units. The new Bafang Ultra Drive seems interseting.

The advantage of DIY is of course able to build something that's more powerful but will require more tinkering and maintenance. I personally have a Bafang 750w middrive hardtail, a 1000w rear hub direct drive motor steel commuter bike, and a 250w rear geared motor vintage road bike. Each serve a different purpose. I'd like to build a lightweight belt drive with an internal geared hub folding bike so it can go in the Spark if I ever get one.

Also, you need to just get the battery pack from a reliable source. Usually em3ev.com or lunacycle.com.

 

[NORTON]

....Yea, this is a whole different topic. Come hang out at http://www.endless-sphere.com
Also, you need to just get the battery pack from a reliable source. Usually em3ev.com or lunacycle.com.

Yes, I am there, as the one known as Norton with the hot rod Spark EV as my avatar ! :mrgreen:
I don't think Bafang makes torque sensing. I'm obsessing over the 500W Tongsheng TSDZ2. It is torque sensing and sounds like it does it well.
Just lighten up on the peddling and make a shift and back on! Or kick back with a throttle. Of course the Bafang comes in way more powerful versions.

And I'm trying to figure out that 'reliable source' for battery packs. I just saw Luna packs may be questionable. And then there's Grin in Canada...

What were we talking about??? Oh yeah, kWh's and % used. Not measly hundreds of Wh's.... :roll:

 

[scrambler]

I don't think Bafang makes torque sensing.

The BBS02 and BBSHD did not have torque sensing, but the new Bafang Max and Max Ultramotor do.

They have an integrated Torque + Cadence + Speed sensing, similar to the bosch type of integrated drive, but with more power.

The Bafang Max is rated 350W with a peak of 750W and an 80nm torque
The Bafang Ultramotor is rated 1000W with a peak of 1600W and 160nm of torque.
Bafang site:
http://www.szbaf.com/en/drive-systems.html

Review of the torque sensing ultramotor
https://electricbike-blog.com/2017/03/19/because-you-need-to-start-excersicising-more-than-just-your-thumb-bafang-1000w-max-ultra-torque-sensing-mid-drive/

 

[Puregsr]

In all seriousness, based on personal experiences and all the reading off this forum, would you guys wait for a 2015+ Spark or get a 2014 for a lower price?
I'm thinking about bargaining to at least $7000 on this 2014 with 28000 miles, pending finding out DCFC option.

Should I ask them to charge it fully and then drive it to at least 50% to estimate capacity? I feel like I need to be more careful when buying 2014 models based on all the "brainwashing" on this forum.

 

[NORTON]

...The BBS02 and BBSHD did not have torque sensing, but the new Bafang Max and Max Ultramotor do....

OK, I see. But those are mid-drive motors made for new-style ebike only frames. You have to buy a whole ebike to get that.
I want to add a mid-drive to my nice FS mtn bike. And I want torque sensing instead of simple PAS.

 

[CCIE]

In all seriousness, based on personal experiences and all the reading off this forum, would you guys wait for a 2015+ Spark or get a 2014 for a lower price?
I'm thinking about bargaining to at least $7000 on this 2014 with 28000 miles, pending finding out DCFC option.

Should I ask them to charge it fully and then drive it to at least 50% to estimate capacity? I feel like I need to be more careful when buying 2014 models based on all the "brainwashing" on this forum.

Personally, I would stay away from the 2014s with A123 batteries. They started life with bigger batteries, but I think they're going to continue degrading much faster than the 2015/16s with LG/Chem batteries. GM didn't go to the effort & expense of switching battery suppliers after one year just for fun. They either had major sourcing issues, or didn't like how the batteries were performing.

The 2015s, which are far more likely to have DCFC installed, will be a-dime-a-dozen soon.

 

[NORTON]

>...I'm thinking about bargaining to at least $7000 on this 2014 with 28000 miles, pending finding out DCFC option.

>>Should I ask them to charge it fully and then drive it to at least 50% to estimate capacity?

>>>I feel like I need to be more careful when buying 2014 models based on all the "brainwashing" on this forum.

>Go for it !! You won't be sorry! And you've had recent practice with the turkeys. :lol:
And it's got to have the DCFC, or walk away, IMHO. Don't let them know you know it was a $750 option. Nonchalantly ask them to send you a pic of the open charge port ....
My 2014 is at 37k miles. Totally trouble free and is around 90% ±5 capacity if I use 19.5 kWh as the starting reference. There is some question what the original spec is.

>>Sure, why not take it for a ~1+ hr test drive. You have plenty of time being either unemployed or with too much money! :lol:

>>>What's wrong with '14's? A123 made some awesome li-ion cells....

 

[NORTON]

... GM didn't go to the effort & expense of switching battery suppliers after one year just for fun. They either had major sourcing issues, or didn't like how the batteries were performing. ....

I thought it was because A123 went belly-up when Fisker Karma went belly-up. They had all their eggs in that one basket. Who knows...

We certainly don't know performance differences, because not enough owners of all years are logging Cap over time. Some are leased. Most are just driven and enjoyed and not fretted about.

 

[CCIE]

... GM didn't go to the effort & expense of switching battery suppliers after one year just for fun. They either had major sourcing issues, or didn't like how the batteries were performing. ....

I thought it was because A123 went belly-up when Fisker Karma went belly-up. They had all their eggs in that one basket. Who knows...

We certainly don't know performance differences, because not enough owners of all years are logging Cap over time. Some are leased. Most are just driven and enjoyed and not fretted about.

A123 had already gone bankrupt and been bought by Wanxiang in early 2013. I'm guessing that GM stuck with them for the 2014 because they planned such low production numbers and had the design complete. But when they realized the A123 supplied batteries had degradation issues, they switched suppliers to LG/Chem for the 2015/16. GM had experience with LG/Chem batteries in the Volt and knew they were rock solid.

 

[SparkevBlogspot]

SparkEV is a great car. But if you're so sensitive that you cannot deal with few percent battery degradation, perhaps it's not for you.

2014 tend to have more degradation if for nothing else than age (it's about 33% older). And if my projections hold out, my 2015 will degrade 50% battery in about 10 years (8 more years). For 2014, depending on when in 2013 it was put to service and how abusive it was driven, that may mean 6 more years.

If the battery degrades more than 35% in 5 years for 2014 (8th year), and you live in CA and less than 100K miles on the car, you may get a replacement from Chevy. But there is no guarantee that they will replace with a new one (though they probably will). Worst case is 65% battery after 5 years with 2014, and you should consider if this is worth $7K.

Going further, it may degrade 50% after 6.5 years (10th year for some 2014). Can you live with 50% battery (about 35 miles range when you include margin) that you pay $7K now?

Even worse, the battery could die just after the warranty period (5 more years for 2014), and the battery could be too expensive to replace, and the car must be junked (or sold in parts). That's the risk you have to consider.

For 2015 and 2016, they have one / two additional years, provided total miles on the car is less than 100K miles. How much is that worth to you?

 

[NORTON]

SparkEV is a great car. ....
> Worst case is 65% battery after 5 years with 2014, and you should consider if this is worth $7K.

>>Going further, it may degrade 50% after 6.5 years (10th year for some 2014). ..

>>>Even worse, the battery could die just after the warranty period (5 more years for 2014), and the battery could be too expensive to replace, and the car must be junked (or sold in parts). That's the risk you have to consider.

>>>>For 2015 and 2016, they have one / two additional years, provided total miles on the car is less than 100K miles. How much is that worth to you?

>Mine is no where on track for these numbers. Who has a plot that shows this trend?

>>This is all speculation. As I always say, "Only time will tell". Li-ions have a shelf/time life. They also have an use/abuse life. I use the HayL out of this car,, several full throttle pulls per commute. Hey, it's a silent fun car and I get free electrons that I don't pinch.
I only leave the battery at 100% for a few hours a day, (I could change my charging at work routine). I DCFC maybe few times a week. Is this use or abuse?

>>>This part is true on absolutely any used car. At least Chevy has a long warranty for the important bits, unlike a typical $7k gasser.

>>>>If you wait long enough anything is possible. Or,,, enter the future of cars now,, for not too much. Show the turkeys you are not hungry and patient.

 

[SparkE]

The eBike topic can be found here : http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4849

 

[SparkevBlogspot]

I wrote about my battery degradation in this blog post.

http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2017/05/year-of-dc-fast-charging-and-battery.html

Plot of my projection from blog post is shown below. You have to read the blog post to understand how I arrived at this.

As for 8 years, 65%, I'm talking about the worst case. If it's 65% in 8.001 years, it's likely to get 50% in 10 years. If jumping into EV, one has to be prepared for this scenario.

You can't wait any longer for SparkEV, since it's been discontinued. The longer you wait, the more risk you take in ending up with more degraded battery.

In principle, I agree with you that one should take the plunge. But one also has to weigh if battery risk is worth it, and how much (in dollar) is extra year(s) warranty worth. Unlike gas cars where enough duct tape could keep the car going (albeit unsafe), dead or highly degraded battery on EV would require a large lump sum payment.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

Great information. I would like to know what Spark EV drivers with more than 40K miles on their vehicles are seeing in terms of calculated battery capacity using the data from the Energy Info screen.

Here is some of my summary data representing the last 15 months:

2014 Spark EV 2 LT - 10500 miles on ODO
1. Number of charging sessions: 112
2. Highest capacity: 18.94
3. Lowest capacity: 17.18
4. Avg. Capacity: 18.17
5. Last calculation: 17.50
6. Last full-charge mileage estimate: 105

2015 Spark EV 2LT - 18500 miles on ODO
1. Number of charging sessions: 125
2. Highest capacity: 18.12
3. Lowest capacity: 16.89
4. Avg. Capacity: 17.57
5. Last calculation: 17.75
6. Last full-charge mileage estimate: 97

 

[SparkevBlogspot]

"4. Avg. Capacity: 17.57 5. Last calculation: 17.75"

Your average capacity is less than your last calculation? That could only happen if you gained capacity in time. I wouldn't say it's impossible as my next blog post will show some "interesting" patterns.

adodgerfan has 70K miles with his 2014. He wrote that he saw 17 kWh from almost empty to full using DCFC. At 94%, that would mean 16 kWh for the battery capacity. At 10K miles per year, he drove equivalent of about 7 years, yet he sees about 5 years worth of degradation. He has 2014, so you have to scale my plot for higher initial capacity. It seems his 2014 is following linear degradation curve for his usage pattern.

I have to stress that his usage could be very different from mine. Still, there's some hope that the degradation is more linear and not as severely affected by charge-discharge cycle at least for one car.